c**tplaces said:
The poll means nothing because it is a poll in an environment populated by 'club cavers' which from day one have had access and are constantly in the same environment with the same like minded people thinking the same way about access...
Whilst I tend to agree that the poll is pretty meaningless, this statement seems to imply that 'club cavers' have access to places and 'non-club cavers' don't have access. That 'club cavers' will ask for permission from landowners, whereas 'non-club cavers' will avoid asking for access. I'm sure you'd agree this is unfair, as any responsible 'non-club' caver would also seek permission from a landowner before entering their property.
I'm sure I can think of examples where 'non-club cavers' have negotiated access arrangements with landowners, and have even needed to fit gates and locks as part of those agreements. The same as there are examples of 'club' cavers forming agreements with landowners without the requirements of locks, or otherwise preventing or restricting access.
The 'club' / 'non-club' hobbyhorse seems to get wheeled out by some people from time to time when it really isn't relevant to the subject in question.
If an individual (whether they belong to a club or not) chooses to cause damage to gain unauthorised entry to someone elses property, then they bring the entire (club or otherwise) caving community into disrepute. That is something which is counter productive to all underground explorers (club or not) who
are prepared to take the time and trouble to ask permission first, be they 'non-club' individuals asking to go underground, or a 'club' asking for permission to go underground. Unfortunatley clubs by their very nature have a higher profile, and as such anyone spotted going underground without permission is likely to be assumed by the landowner to belong to the 'local club', even if in reality the person is 'non-club', or belongs to a different 'club'.
This means the actions of one person doing what the heck they want without permission can jepordise matters for the wider community (club or otherwise) who
are polite enough to ask first, and in so doing possibly discover any access conditions placed by the landowner (eg. don't park cars by the entrance, don't climb over the field wall - use the longer footpath, don't drive down the private lane, etc.). ...oh, and if after asking the answer is found to be 'no', then respecting the landowners wishes. By respecting those wishes and not antagonising the landowner, it may be possible (for someone) to gain permission at a later date.