Daleswear to close

[Simon Wilson]

The costs of living are so eye-watering that pretty nearly everyone is forced to buy on price, though.

We hear things like that all the time but we "have never had it so good". We live in a very affluent country in affluent times and caving gear has never been cheaper in proportion to disposable income. My first Croll cost about half a week's pay. I was told last week that one early cave diver's first demand valve cost a month's pay.

If I recall correctly the last of the Petzl suits retailed for about ?75 about twenty years ago (something like that). So by today's prices we would be paying about ?250 for an oversuit. If there was an oversuit available of good enough quality I think keen cavers would be prepared pay ?250 for it.

 

[Simon Wilson]

If we can't get that widget then we can return to the days of 'make do and mend' I suppose.  Perhaps we are doing that now, using gear designed for rope access, climbing, pressure washing industries etc.

I designed a resin anchor for caving because there was not a sufficiently good one available commercially. And there was not one available because the market is too small.

http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/2.html

 

[alanw]

If I recall correctly the last of the Petzl suits retailed for about ?75 about twenty years ago (something like that). So by today's prices we would be paying about ?250 for an oversuit. If there was an oversuit available of good enough quality I think keen cavers would be prepared pay ?250 for it.

I've got an old Daleswear catalogue, no date, but the phone numbers are pre "PhONEday", April 1995. Will also have been after I moved back up North in 1990.

on-line inflation calculator
says that ?100 in 1993 is ?184.93 today

AFI = "adjusted for inflation"

Kingsdale Oversuit: ?45, AFI: ?83.25, now ?70
Standard Oversuit: ?38
Kinsgsdale Undersuit: ?38, AFI: ?70.30, now ?65

Also an Inglesport one, of similar vintage:

Petzl Ecrin Helmet: ?27.55, AFI: ?50.96, no loger available, Vertex Vent: ?67.50
Petzl Stop: ?31.50, AFI: ?58.27, now: ?81
Static rope, 11mm about ?1.50 / m, now still ?1.50 / m

Oversuits, about ?65
Undersuits: ?30 to ?40

Some things are cheaper, some Petzl stuff is much more expensive. As for lighting, there is no way you can compare carbide / Oldham / FX2 with today's LEDs.

 

[JAA]

We hear things like that all the time but we "have never had it so good". We live in a very affluent country in affluent times and caving gear has never been cheaper in proportion to disposable income

That may be the case for you Simon, but i can 100% assure you it isnt the case for most!! 

 

[Bottlebank]

I tend to agree with Alanw, with the exception of rope I think caving kit has risen slightly in cost over the years, especially if you consider the amount paid for some lamps nowadays.

One problem I think all the shops must face is the quality of some of the kit, it simply lasts too long! Obviously suits and kneepads wear out but much of the rest lasts ten or twenty years or longer. In that sense I think Simon is right in some ways, the actual cost of buying kit is fairly minimal - for me the largest cost by far is travel.

The combined caf?/shop/online sales model has helped caving shops survive, perhaps just, so far, but I think if caving shops want to continue to survive they need to make sure they continue to get the pricing, food and loyalty right.

My original point about Daleswear not discounting wasn't really related to caving gear. It became an shop in a caving area run by a caver and selling some gear but most of the range was walking kit you can buy anywhere. We wanted to support it but it was difficult when you knew you were paying full price for everything, and when other shops selling the same kit were happy to offer say 10% discount if you could show a BCA card, and were often cheaper in the first place.

I'm sure the demise of Daleswear and possible closure of Bernies will boost Inglesport in the short run, but given the number of walkers visiting the area alone the village is probably wide open for a new competitor to enter the market, so now is the obvious time to try and boost loyalty. Retaining a full margin is pointless if you don't have the sales in the first place.

 

[Simon Wilson]

If I recall correctly the last of the Petzl suits retailed for about ?75 about twenty years ago (something like that). So by today's prices we would be paying about ?250 for an oversuit. If there was an oversuit available of good enough quality I think keen cavers would be prepared pay ?250 for it.

I've got an old Daleswear catalogue, no date, but the phone numbers are pre "PhONEday", April 1995. Will also have been after I moved back up North in 1990.

on-line inflation calculator
says that ?100 in 1993 is ?184.93 today

AFI = "adjusted for inflation"

Kingsdale Oversuit: ?45, AFI: ?83.25, now ?70
Standard Oversuit: ?38
Kinsgsdale Undersuit: ?38, AFI: ?70.30, now ?65

Also an Inglesport one, of similar vintage:

Petzl Ecrin Helmet: ?27.55, AFI: ?50.96, no loger available, Vertex Vent: ?67.50
Petzl Stop: ?31.50, AFI: ?58.27, now: ?81
Static rope, 11mm about ?1.50 / m, now still ?1.50 / m

Oversuits, about ?65
Undersuits: ?30 to ?40

Some things are cheaper, some Petzl stuff is much more expensive. As for lighting, there is no way you can compare carbide / Oldham / FX2 with today's LEDs.

OK I was a long way out on my very quick guess at the relative cost of an oversuit. However, it is not as simple as Alan suggests. You have to compare the cost of caving with disposable income. Average disposable income may not have risen quite as much over the last twenty years but over the last forty years it has risen hugely and people's ability to afford caving gear has increased enormously.

 

[Simon Wilson]

We hear things like that all the time but we "have never had it so good". We live in a very affluent country in affluent times and caving gear has never been cheaper in proportion to disposable income

That may be the case for you Simon, but i can 100% assure you it isnt the case for most!! 

Every day I visit the homes of people who live in posh detached houses, people who work for the minimum wage and live in poor quality housing,  drug addicts, some of the most underprivileged and needy and all sorts in between. I have also travelled widely in the World.

Most people in this country are very affluent indeed. Many people who I hear complain about their standard of living would benefit by experiencing the standard of living that the vast majority in this World have and hopefully a few of them might stop winging.

 

[jasonbirder]

Most people in this country are very affluent indeed. Many people who I hear complain about their standard of living would benefit by experiencing the standard of living that the vast majority in this World have and hopefully a few of them might stop winging.

Because the standard of living of a caver based in Yorkshire compared to the standard of living of a Toureg tribesman has alot of bearing on whether he buys his caving kit in a shop as opposed to online!

 

[Bottlebank]

I don't think there's much doubt the average UK caver has a lot more disposable income than thirty or forty years ago but skint cavers will always feel skint!

 

[ChrisJC]

Most people in this country are very affluent indeed. Many people who I hear complain about their standard of living would benefit by experiencing the standard of living that the vast majority in this World have and hopefully a few of them might stop winging.

There is quite a difference between poverty and 'relative poverty'.

Chris.

 

[Pitlamp]

Few would disagree that it's not difficult to find others far less fortunate than ourselves.

But I'm not sure that's what this topic is about 

 

[bograt]

the standard of living of a Toureg tribesman has alot of bearing on whether he buys his caving kit in a shop as opposed to online!

Err, why would a Toureg tribesman want caving gear, and how would he get online anyway?  :-\ :-\

I would, however like to disagree with Simons blinkered view about relative affluence in the U.K., I, for one have never been worse off!, my 'disposable income' is in negative figures thanks to recent government (and banking) policies. -------

-------OFF TOPIC---!!!!!

 

[Simon Wilson]

Well maybe I have gone off topic. I thought that Chris was suggesting that a high cost of living and people economising was a factor in Daleswear closing when he said,

The costs of living are so eye-watering that pretty nearly everyone is forced to buy on price, though.

Possibly I misunderstood him.

I think Daleswear could have survived as a manufacturer of budget caving clothing and bags if they hadn't taken the path they did into general outdoor retailing. But to survive as a manufacturer would have been very difficult set against the decline in numbers of people caving and competition for Eastern Europe.

 

[Over the Hill]

Being there I still enjoy recalling some 30 plus years ago Alan Steele saying to a customer in Inglesport who insisted on buying static rope for cows tails. "The customer is always right but in this case you fecking wrong". Needles to say more he went away without the static rope but a possible life saved. As for Tom closing Daleswear I recall another bit of advice as told to me by the still missed Roy Mundy. "On the ladder of life if you fall off the bottom step expect to twist an ankle but fall off the top step you will more likely break your Fecking neck.

Shame to loose jobs in the area though, earning a living in the greater village area is hard work speaking from past experience.

 

[Pitlamp]

Just going back to this topic from 3 years ago - someone mentioned that Daleswear is still operating from somewhere but only as an online retailer. Anyone know if this is the case and / or what the web address is?

A quick Google search hasn't thrown up any sites (that work).

 

[Over the Hill]

Was only yesterday talking to Jack Pickup as I passed though Jangletown. Apparently Tom Lambert is now a fully fledged member of the Grumpy club / table at Bernies so pop in and ask him. 

 

[Pitlamp]

 

 

[Hammy]

Just going back to this topic from 3 years ago - someone mentioned that Daleswear is still operating from somewhere but only as an online retailer. Anyone know if this is the case and / or what the web address is?

A quick Google search hasn't thrown up any sites (that work).

My sources are not particularly reputable but I have been led to believe that this business may have the original Daleswear patterns...

https://www.mountain-method.co.uk

 

[yrammy]

I have a fleece that I bought at Daleswear at least 25 years ago. It is still going stong and has been wasked countless times. Unlike much stuff today it was made to last - and that probably contributes to the downfall of good local manufacturers. We live in the chuck it out society.
Mary

 

[Pitlamp]

Thanks Hammy - I note they also make Ventile garments. I have a Ventile jacket which I treated myself to a long time ago (expensively). It's a superb material and probably the most comfortable thing I've worn in the British climate (i.e. mainly mild and wet - in conditions where Goretex etc just doesn't do what it supposed to).