Digging options

[anfieldman]

Our dig is a bit cramped at the 'business' end making bagging up the spoil a bit of a pain. What is your opinion of the best way to go forward? Go for glory and dig enough to be able to squeeze through (leaving the rest behind to struggle bagging your waste) or garden as you go along and make it easier to bag and haul away?

Don't get serious anyone. It's only an advert my dear.

 

[Brains]

clear up as you go, otherwise you will disapear in a mountain of spoil that is too soul destroying to move again and again... digs are rarely short term these days - if ever?!

 

[shotlighter]

Keep it big enough to work in. Re-engineering a dig that's got smaller & smaller is a right pain & it drives away potential helpers.
Snap Brains!

 

[Les W]

Go for the quick hit but if it doesn't pay off quickly then consolidation and plan for the long haul is the way forward. Spoil disposal problems is what often kills digs.

If it is really poor or too much work then big it up in the local caving community and sell it for beer.

(Any one want to buy a dig? breakthrough is gauranteed after two trips and it's only just 10 min's of easy caving from the entrance. 2 beers and it's yours.  [size=6pt] (E&OE) ) [/size]

 

[Hughie]

(Any one want to buy a dig? breakthrough is gauranteed after two trips and it's only just 10 min's of easy caving from the entrance. 2 beers and it's yours.  [size=6pt] (E&OE) ) [/size]

:-\

 

[Elaine]

This wouldn't be that 'sure thing' in Swildons would it Les? Although if it is then the price has gone up.

As to digging, I can quite understand why people follow the roof and take out minimal spoil in the hope the breakthrough is quick and the need to find space to stack spoil is then less of a problem.  Hughie is always telling me that digs should be dug out completely and done properly, which I can see is good practise. So I am undecided as to which is best. 

 

[whitelackington]

This wouldn't be that 'sure thing' in Swildons would it Les? Although if it is then the price has gone up.

As to digging, I can quite understand why people follow the roof and take out minimal spoil in the hope the breakthrough is quick and the need to find space to stack spoil is then less of a problem.  Hughie is always telling me that digs should be dug out completely and done properly, which I can see is good practise. So I am undecided as to which is best. 

Hughie is correct.

 

[Rob]

Go for glory and dig enough to be able to squeeze through (leaving the rest behind to struggle bagging your waste) or garden as you go along and make it easier to bag and haul away?

Depends ENTIRELY upon the dig... 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Yes it does depend entirely on the dig. My only real experience of long-term digs has not been in caves but in mines/quarries. The go-for-glory digs rarely produce results. They fizzle out when the crawl is too long to make digging nice. I have spent the winter clearing up/filling in other people's go-for-glory digs that failed and it is hard work. Where digs have been dug out to a comfortable digging height, the digging is easier and just as fast as the stupid low crawls. The only factor to consider is dumping space. I would take the attitude that if you disturb the cave/mine environment, you are also responsible for keeping the place as tidy as possible and as safe as possible, and should not leave it for others who come after you.

 

[rhychydwr1]

Put in a railway, dig it out completely, then perhaps I can get down there.

 

[SamT]

I agree with most of the above.

I want to emphasize that I think its increadibly important to asses, plan and manage what you do with the spoil. Too many digs turn the surrounding cave into a fudge tunnel, destroying any aesthetic appeal, any signs of morphology and generally f**k the place up - often they are then abandoned.

Areas should be identified for stacking spoil that minimise the impact on the cave and the effort to get the spoil there (kibbles/trains/hoists etc) should be spent.

Natural 'ginging' and dry stone walling is often prefereable to plastic sandbags or timber - which rot tear degrade and generally look unsightly .

And if you do abandon a dig - clear up all the detritus after you leaving the place tidy and ready for others to make an attempt.

Oh - and document all you do - so that future diggers have a head start. Case in point being the p6 diggers beavering away for months - then coming across the top of a ladder, it had been dug by the Suss I think decades ago - and all the spoil had washed back in.

 

[phil.gregson]

In my humble opinion a bit of organisation, pre-planning and engineering goes a long way to making any dig of more than a few metres a success.

Worm-holing may work for a short time but a few metres in when you can't dig efficiently and you can't move spoil efficiently it will start to grind to a halt and move very slowly.  I have always reckoned that you should, where practically and environmentally feasable, dig to the largest size that you can so that you can dig standing up and move spoil fast and efficiently - it may mean moving several times as much material but can still be several times quicker.

I am also a fan of walling as a means of waste stacking - it looks so much better than piles of mud and fertiliser bags!!  A good wall can hold back material at a steep angle maximising space.  Also, when dealing with rock, place the bigger pieces rather than chucking them - they take up much less precious stacking space.

On our current project in a mine where we have been re-digging our way through collapsed stopes (following a draft).  Rather than just finding the quickest way to squeeze through we set up properly and completely removed and re-stacked old packs of deads on stemples (steel - 25mm Gewi rock bolt material) as we went (both horizontally and then vertically down).  It was surprisingly quick once you get going properly and a team of two could dig, move and re-stack 8-10 tonnes of material in a 8-10 hour 'shift'.  This has many advantages - Quick easy digging when you get going, easy man(ish) sized access as we progress further into the mine, the deads take up less space than before we moved them (very helpful) and it is very safe and solid.  Further more the working environment is now pleasant enough that people will come and help.

Phil

 

[pete h]

Go for the quick hit but if it doesn't pay off quickly then consolidation and plan for the long haul is the way forward. Spoil disposal problems is what often kills digs.

If it is really poor or too much work then big it up in the local caving community and sell it for beer.

(Any one want to buy a dig? breakthrough is gauranteed after two trips and it's only just 10 min's of easy caving from the entrance. 2 beers and it's yours.  [size=6pt] (E&OE) ) [/size]

This is why your so successfully then Les  :-\
No dig should be considered short term we always put a min 5 year term on ours, and always tidy up /
shore up as you go if you don't it will collapse behind you creating more work.

 

[gus horsley]

I used to go for the tidy-up approach until one dig in which persons unknown completed it for us.  It only led to a short section of new stuff but even so it's very disappointing when a dig gets pirated.

 

[woollydigger]

dig out and move only move enogth spoil to fit the fattest menber of your team thougth. i dig by myself but i have to make it big enogth to who does my bangin down.