Dove Holes Tunnel

[bograt]

I had an hour up there this aftenoon to apply map and grid reference theory to surface features;

I am confident in saying that Dove Holes Cave is LOST, buried somewhere under the tarmac of the bus garage yard.

Goydenman; Impressive pictures, please tell us where they are.

Dan; No.3 is what you found, Bull Ring Cave, a bit out from the map reference but the most promising, No.1 is 41m down, in the tunnel.

John; Just like old times eh?, only difference is a screen in front of us instead of a pint!.(and a lot more spectators).
I think the dip (relevant to drainage) is more north than west, taking the flow towards the Barmoor Clough roundabout, I can't see any reason to consider lava beds at this time, (I'm thinking local). If folks want me to turn my incredible speliobrain to getting the water to Wormhill, I can work on it !. (But then again, I am a little drunk at this time)

Took some piccies, will post them in the abnormal state of sobriety (if I ever get there ! ).

 

[T pot 2]

Just throwing in me four halfpeth Ben Bentham did quite a bit in Dove around the late 80s his results were published in Descent & the Eldon Journals. The third of Goydemans photos is situated in the last field on the left before the traffic lights heading towards Chapel  (with the Wheatsheaf facing you) hope this of some help.


T pot

 

[DAN]

It seems to me that the best bet to find any amount of cave in Dove Holes might be Dove Holes Swallet no 2. I approached the Old lady who owns Dove Holes Swallet no 1 in her garden and there is no way she was up for letting cavers dig there. She must have been getting on a bit then, I've been waiting to see a for sale sign for the last eight years! I don?t know much about Dove Holes Swallet no 2 has anyone ever dug there?

Dan

 

[Goydenman]

Re: The photos
I think the first two are swallet no. 1 in the garden of a private house. The third and fourth I was not sure but T-pot 2 seems to know. Finally the last one is the waste ground by the crossroads in the middle of Doveholes.

 

[DAN]

Which waste ground?

 

[Goydenman]

Just looked on google earth and I would say it was crossroads with lights of Dale Road. What was waste ground opposite restuarant now looks like someones garden - there again I may be wrong I went there 30 years ago!!

 

[bograt]

In the sober light of day I twigged what John B was getting at and applied some corrective sums to rectify my dumbo oversight, these corrections have the effect of moving the whole substrata west about 200m at a depth of 41m, bringing the inlets into line with that small band of Litton Tuffs (orangy on inset 1 map), no indication on the cross section of how deep this band goes but it is more logical to think of that as being the governing factor for drainage.

Dan, if Swallet 2 drains to the tunnel, the potential is not that great, maybe 300m linear, 40m drop, bearing in mind that the inlets are too tight. However, I seem to recall seing somewhere in the dim and distant past that this swallet has been tested to Wormhill, but I cannot find the reference, (can you ratify this John?), if this is the case it must miss the tunnel completely and opens up a totally new ball game!. The complex of dips, joints and lava beds to the east are a treasure trove of possibilities.

I am still intrigued by that little knoll reef to the north of Bull Ring Cave, I didn't have time to look yesterday but it is still on my list.

The waste ground by the crossroads is Swallet 2., I seem to recall Mick Knott (r.i.p.) doing some work there in the 90's, I don't remember who with or whether they recorded anything. (Mark Flett has just sprung to mind, but I may be mistaken)

 

[DAN]

Who did the Dye test maybe it would be a good idea to look at the test Data? I bet John Gun would be the man to speak to? Sounds like the downstream of cave intersected by the Tunnel would be the best place to look? It makes you wonder why they never used the Natural drainage which the tunnel would have found while being driven. Maybe it?s very Immature and relied on the pressure of the water from the Swallets above! Who knows but for that many Swallets to all be in one small place then maybe the cave behind the Bull ring would be a very good bet. Let?s face it how many Digs in Derbyshire are not a long term dig? It has got a few things going for it though, being dry, abandoned, old high level; it might just be the bit of cave to drop you into something beyond and bellow the tunnel and away from the quarry!

 

[bograt]

These were the lines I was thinking along.
I think it likely that the watercourses intersected by the tunnel where immature phreatic, going downstream to where the various flows met could pay dividends and result in accessible passage, since the water was diverted suddenly, any passage reached should be clear of glacial crap, imagine that; dry, virgin phreatic passage without the mud !.

 

[DAN]

If you go along the road from Dove holes following the railway to Tunstead just before the bridge on the opposite side of the railway about 100 meters from the railway line there is a big walk in cave entrance which is not in the cave of the peak district. This is very large abandoned passage which must mean there is a high and dry abandoned system to be found. Also if you walk up the main valley from wormhill risings eventually you come to a mine entrance on the left hand side with cavers digging tackle in it. I've never been in but I have always wondered who was digging it? Also if you walk down Blackwell Dale until you get to the cottages directly above the cottages on the edge of the quarry there is cave which I have been but without a torch and it looked to continue. My point being there is still cave to be found if people are prepared to go and look for it!

 

[JAM]

Nice work Dan!!  How these caves have not been documented is unbelievable. But i think you hit upon the main reason and that's because most (regular, trip orientated cavers) don't do any surface exploration, leaving it down to a few regular diggers, who are already digging somewhere. If only more of the regular / normal caver fraternity would scout out NEW cave, I'm sure the digging side of the family would be happy to do the rest..
This has been a good thread. I realized there was stuff around Dove Holes but hadn't realized its potential importance. Hopefully whoever takes on a dig there gets some good returns!

 

[T pot 2]

I'm not wanting to rock the boat but I think that some of the statements in the last two posts are a little out of order.

Cave not documented ?

The caves that Dan mentioned are documented in the Pegasus journals and club hostel log books. Dove holes, Bee low Tunstead, Blackwell Dale, Millers Dale Chee Dale etc, and the area down to the wye were walked over many weeks if not months in the mid seventies by many active people of the club and others in an attempt to solve the same results that you today are trying to achieve. Some of the indiviual names of these are still around today. Ask the questions and answers may follow.

Caves are where you find them?

Yes caves are where you find them but to broadly state that only diggers find them is incorrect.
Most caving areas in the derbyshire limestones have been intensely searched since the before the begining of the second world war up to present day by the derbyshire clubs and individual persons. Thousands of hours have been spent by others scouring the Perryfoot catchment, Bradwell Mooor, Oxlow moor, Bee Low, Tideswell moor, Hay Dale, Peters Dale to name only a few of the sites in one area and the Lathkill catchment, Hartington, Glutton Bridge / Chrome hill, Stanley Moor, Back of Harpur Hill, Ginlow and many other areas too.
These walks / investigations have been recorded but the information is not published in any way. This is because club log books stay in individual libraries and personal journals are not made privvy to the many folk who desire the information.

My own view is that cavers are a secretive bunch and always will be.

As for the future ? A national or derbyshire caving centre would great to have, it could be a museum or an archieve or both. All of the information that is about could be correlated, historical information held in council offices, private libraries, could be made available. If a centre was to be it could also be used for training cavers, cave divers etc.

Right! spleen vented

Cavers Idle I don't Think so !

Nuff said

 

[C.Raven]

If the Doves Holes sink water has been cut off by the railway tunnel where does the large ammount of water come from at Wormhill Springs.

 

[bograt]

Waterswallows must have got its name from somewhere.

 

[AR]

Talking of caves and holes in this area, I took my horsebox over to Waterswallows for testing this morning, and coming back, I spotted what looked like a sinkhole blocked with farm rubbish in the first field after HGV Direct going back towards Buxton. Useful having the higher vantage point in the cab of a 7.5 tonner sometimes....

 

[bograt]

More info from my man on the inside;
Apparently the line is closed to traffic for line inspection from 11.00 pm Saturdays until 6.00am Sundays, no trains but people in railtrack gear checking the lines.

 

[martinb]

More info from my man on the inside;
Apparently the line is closed to traffic for line inspection from 11.00 pm Saturdays until 6.00am Sundays, no trains but people in railtrack gear checking the lines.

Which should not be taken as a 'free for all' to go and explore the tunnel as engineering trains may and do run.

Quote from Network Rail:

"Trespassing on the railway is a criminal offence which carries a fine of up to ?1,000.

Putting objects on the tracks (like rocks or shopping trolleys) could cause a train accident which may hurt or kill other people. If you do this, then you can be prosecuted by the police. The maximum penalty for causing a train accident is life imprisonment. If your child is charged with causing a train accident, then you may be prosecuted by the police too.

Graffiti is also a serious crime which can result in a prison sentence.

If you are caught trespassing or vandalising on the railway, then you will be prosecuted by the police."

 

[droid]

I thought that for Trespass to be a criminal offence it must be PROVED that you were committing (or intended to commit) damage to the owner's property.

Otherwise all they could do is ask you to leave the property by the nearest/most convienient route.

I await clarification.

 

[graham]

I await clarification.

I do not know the answer to this but would suspect that a different and more stringent rule would apply to railways because of the inherent danger involved.

 

[Mark]

Which should not be taken as a 'free for all' to go and explore the tunnel as engineering trains may and do run.

As I said before, we went there in the 70s, and there is not a lot to see just a little bit of tight passage at the top of a waterfall, really not worth the risk or effort, and it was all logged in the TSG log book