dowbergill navigational aids removed!

[Simon Beck]

Just thought i'd let, who ever placed the 4mm hawser rope markers in the upstream end of dowbergill passage, know that all but one were removed by myself today. If i'd seen the one stretched across 'stalagmite corner' first, then they'd all have been removed. My reasons for doing this, i'm sure, are pretty obvious. 

 

[dunc]

Good one 

 

[cap n chris]

Collecting litter is a worthy endeavour.

 

[SamT]

be interesting to know who/why they where placed, but seems like a good idea to remove them if they where purly to make routefinding "easy".

Its not what cavings about. 

 

[graham]

they don't seem to have been needed for the past forty years ...

 

[Simon Beck]

All they do is rob a trip like dowbergill of it's integrity and 1st timers the chance to use there brains. It's less than 6 months since i was in there last, meaning they're a recent installment. The two downstream of skittle weren't to bad (i removed only one, only cause i couldn't be arsed carrying a 5' piece of hawser rope out. The piece at 'stal corner' took the piss, the best way to refer to it would be an 8' long finsh line. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Is there a case for limiting the distribution of route-finding surveys for sites where the challenge of getting to know your way around is much reduced with a survey freely available?

 

[Trog]

I see no problem with surveys being available, it is after all optional whether you take one or not. I can choose to do a cave like Dowbergill with someone who knows it well or I can rely on a description and survey and do it myself. Neither of these options have any impact on others wanting to do the cave. Markers in the cave, however, will spoil the experience for everyone else. Some time ago, I removed a load of arrows made of insulation tape stuck to rocks on the route through 4 ways chamber between Wretched Rabbit and Stop Pot. Markers like this I consider to be litter, and should not be left for any reason. Well done Simon for removing the litter from Dowbergill. Thank you.

 

[paul]

Is there a case for limiting the distribution of route-finding surveys for sites where the challenge of getting to know your way around is much reduced with a survey freely available?

No.

 

[andymorgan]

Is there a case for limiting the distribution of route-finding surveys for sites where the challenge of getting to know your way around is much reduced with a survey freely available?

Err, no this is a silly idea.  Route finding using a survey is a key skill for a caver. If people know how to use a survey, then there is no need for painted arrows, cairns, ropes; and people won't get lost.

 

[mrodoc]

What is the point of making a survey if it isn't for route finding of one sort or another?  When I started caving I bought all the surveys I could lay my hands on and they considerably enriched my caving experience. 

 

[Rob]

I reckon in some situations it may be ok to have discreet arrows, cairns, etc guiding the way, such as:

If no survey is available, especially for a common throughtrip/roundtrip...
To protect out-of-the-way formations from lost throughfare...
If the "wrong way" could be dangerous (loose rocks, bad air, unanticipated ducks/sumps, etc)...
If the "wrong way" is long and arduous (compared to the rest of the cave) and could jepadise the team's callout time ...

I know they've helped me in the past and i've been thankful of them. And yes i understand that getting lost on a trip can add to the excitement/experience, but it also can be annoying and timewasting. But maybe i'm wrong 

 

[paul]

I reckon in some situations it may be ok to have discreet arrows, cairns, etc guiding the way, such as:

If no survey is available, especially for a common throughtrip/roundtrip...
To protect out-of-the-way formations from lost throughfare...
If the "wrong way" could be dangerous (loose rocks, bad air, unanticipated ducks/sumps, etc)...
If the "wrong way" is long and arduous (compared to the rest of the cave) and could jepadise the team's callout time ...

I know they've helped me in the past and i've been thankful of them. And yes i understand that getting lost on a trip can add to the excitement/experience, but it also can be annoying and timewasting. But maybe i'm wrong 

Or alternatively visit the cave with somebody who knows the route and learn that way...

 

[SamT]

I know where your coming from Rob and I agree in certain circumstances.

however - part of the "Dowbergill experience" is in the route finding. Ive never done it - however it has a reputation in my mind from all the tales down the pub and trip reports Ive ever read - you haven't done it properly if you didn't get lost on your first trip.

 

[langcliffe]

I know where your coming from Rob and I agree in certain circumstances.
however - part of the "Dowbergill experience" is in the route finding. Ive never done it - however it has a reputation in my mind from all the tales down the pub and trip reports Ive ever read - you haven't done it properly if you didn't get lost on your first trip.

The navigation problems that lead to rescues are not encountered where the ropes were removed from, either. They tend to be met when trying to find the right level in Dowbergill Passage. Such problems tend not to be of the sort where people have to sit it out because they are lost, but of the sort that saps energy and confidence, so that people effectively give up.

 

[Rob]

In case people took my post wrongly, i'd like to point out that i was talking totally generally, not about Dowbergill directly. Me, Batgirl and LittleTitan did the Prov-Dow throughtrip without survey and with no major mistakes in just over 2 hours, all on our first visit to the cave, so i fully agree with the removal of the totally unnecessary guides in this cave. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

What is the point of making a survey if it isn't for route finding of one sort or another?  When I started caving I bought all the surveys I could lay my hands on and they considerably enriched my caving experience. 

Perhaps as a pure scientific or archaeological record. If a particularly well preserved area of a system is protected to a degree because it is remote and difficult to find, would having a survey put those areas at much greater risk from numpties and ne'er-do-wells?

 

[Simon Beck]

I'm assuming your earlier comment was some way of contradicting me and your comments in my opinion are fairly irrelevant so i'll just ask out of curiosity Peter B....Have you ever undertook the trip from Providence pot to Dow cave yourself?.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I'm assuming your earlier comment was some way of contradicting me and your comments in my opinion are fairly irrelevant so i'll just ask out of curiosity Peter B....Have you ever undertook the trip from Providence pot to Dow cave yourself?.

No, Simon, I was not contradicting anything you have said here or done in the cave. You certainly did the right thing. It was a thought that came to me while the discussion was being made about making route-finding too easy. Nothing more. Chill out, please. My comments might be better placed in a new topic, perhaps.

 

[Brains]

Part of the problem with Provi Dow is the survey makes it look so easy - a nice straight line Pity it isnt so straight forward for those that get lost and need assistance....
(Have done it, with assistance of a knowledgeable team...)