Draughtproofing

[darkplaces]

Darkplaces wrote:

I'd prefer much less fidding going on, like I disaggree with 'woodland managment' what a crock of poo.

For more information on the 'crock of poo' see
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/infd-6dccen

Exactly - Money & Jobs... To be seen to be doing something.

Mans mineing activities has created huge underground places for bats so it could be said that man has helped bats hugly. I am also told in Box bat populations have been rising for the past 10 years dispite so called 'unauthorised' visiting.

I do take issue with this idea of privilege that 'Dunc' has raised. I think this is a bit arrogant and over the top (sorry Dunc). You should respect the place you visit and not take it for granted. I just dont like the word 'privilege' it does imply 'lesser people' then yourself should not enter and enjoy a natural thing.

As to draft gates I think they should only be concidered if your protecting something extreamly very interesting.

 

[dunc]

I do take issue with this idea of privilege that 'Dunc' has raised. I think this is a bit arrogant and over the top (sorry Dunc). You should respect the place you visit and not take it for granted

Sorry? You will be! only joking I see your point on the usage of that word, the point I was trying to make was relating to the 'build up of radon' post, in other words if an air-plug was removed and subsequently altered the draught then installing a draught-proof gate to protect the environment as it was is fine. If radon levels remain the same (lets say they are high) its not a problem, if you don't like subjecting yourself to radon don't go.. The post by AndyF seemed arrogant (sorry Andy!) by suggesting that high levels of radon would perhaps prevent humans from exploring certain passages, to me it said we should allow the environment to be altered so we can explore it for our own gain - hence usage of the words privilege/right..

 

[gus horsley]

As far as blocking or unblocking entrances are concerned, I had a nasty experience in Ogof Pant-y-llyn in West Wales. There were two entrances, one being a duck and squeeze below a large unstable boulder, the other a 15ft vertical drop into a low wet tube and muddy ascent into a chamber. Being out of the way, the cave received very few visitors. On the day of the incident I entered the cave by the "safe" entrance (the vertical drop) only to find that there was little oxygen in the crawl at the bottom. I managed to exit ok but it created a brief panic because it was quite restricted. The other entrance had been sealed by the unstable boulder and the draught had been disrupted, leading to a build-up of carbon dioxide in the other entrance.

Gus

 

[graham]

I think the planet would do just fine if we stoped poking and fidding with it with our arrogant idea that we have damaged the planet.

As someone more famous said 'the planet is fine, its us who are f%$ked'.

I'd prefer much less fidding going on, like I disaggree with 'woodland managment' what a crock of poo. Woods dont need managment, they need to be left, and used. What ever you do, open a cave, close a cave you have changed something and the weaker will die, a process that made us today. Too much thinking going on, just take your rubbish home but dont use a street bin as street bins are not for that kind of rubbish.

Woods don't need managing????????????? WTF are you talking about? There is virtually no woodland in the British Isles (and absolutely none in England) that has not been "managed" by man at some point. Our entire landscape is the result of man's interference and anyone who thinks differently clearly has not studied the subject.

 

[AndyF]

I think the planet would do just fine if we stoped poking and fidding with it with our arrogant idea that we have damaged the planet.

As someone more famous said 'the planet is fine, its us who are f%$ked'.

I'd prefer much less fidding going on, like I disaggree with 'woodland managment' what a crock of poo. Woods dont need managment, they need to be left, and used. What ever you do, open a cave, close a cave you have changed something and the weaker will die, a process that made us today. Too much thinking going on, just take your rubbish home but dont use a street bin as street bins are not for that kind of rubbish.

Woods don't need managing????????????? WTF are you talking about? There is virtually no woodland in the British Isles (and absolutely none in England) that has not been "managed" by man at some point. Our entire landscape is the result of man's interference and anyone who thinks differently clearly has not studied the subject.

I agree, of course woods now need managing. If not they got to pot, overgrown, straggly trees - a right mess. How come it didn't need it in the past? Well before man came along there were things in the forest that helped keep a balance. Wild boar grubbed up the forest floors, stopping overgrow, deer roamed free dropping manure and eating vegetaion below a certain level, red squirrels worked in the treetops. Man yes MAN has scr****d all that up, so now we have to do the work that these creatures once did. Unless we do the balance goes wrong and woods turn into wildlife unfriendly jungles.

 

[graham]

This is straying a long way off topic, but nonetheless....

Andy: where are these woods that were getting along happily before man came along? There are none; man arrived (back) on these islands just as soon as the last Ice Age was over, at the same time as the trees, and has been happily screwing up the woods as long as there have been woods to screw up (or manage).

 

[gus horsley]

I believe there are a few bits of native woodland that don't get managed, comprising small areas of scrub oak on bouldery ground. I can think of a couple of examples, but they are rather insignificant in terms of the general area.

 

[graham]

I believe there are a few bits of native woodland that don't get managed, comprising small areas of scrub oak on bouldery ground. I can think of a couple of examples, but they are rather insignificant in terms of the general area.

According to Ransome, there are a couple of bits in the Burren of Co. Clare, in Oughtdarra and the Glencurran valley, but there ain't no completely wild wood anywhere in the UK. I would guess that the stuff you are describing is secondary woodland that has grown up on areas that are no longer grazed.

 

[gus horsley]

Ok, you're probably right. I just remember there was one in the Gwendraith valley that was a SSSI because it was untouched. It was dwarf oaks on limestone boulders. My memory might not be what it was.

Gus

 

[cap n chris]

My memory might not be what it was.

... but Nostalgia remains the same!

 

[Cave_Troll]

No, if you give an organism an unatural advantage, it maz destabilise an ecosystem. For example more bats=more insects being eaten=less food for other organisms, or rare species of insects going extinct.

Ok, an extreme example, but what i'm saying is that so called 'conservationists' and 'ecologists' do not always know the long term consequences of their actions..

but people created that change in the first place when we
1) dug the mine
2) stopped working the mine thus allowing the bats to move in
3) gated the mine, potentially stopping the bats.

mean while we also cut down all the trees that the bats used to live in, replaced them with large thatched barns, then removed the barns and put up bat boxes.

 

[twllddu]

Only slightly off topic. Has anyone know of any work that has been done to quantify draughts in caves ?

 

[AndyF]

Only slightly off topic. Has anyone know of any work that has been done to quantify draughts in caves ?

I suspect this is very difficult to measure or quantify. I think there has been some work on temperature variation across entrances (on the Black Mountain shakeholes IIRC), but actual draughts in caves may be quite hard to do...

Be interested if anyone has an angle on this...

 

[twllddu]

I think you're right in saying it may be quite hard to do !

 

[Peter Burgess]

Like dye-tracing, I wonder if there might one day be a practical draught tracing technique? I know that the lightest trace of some potent smells can be picked up by cavers' noses, but can a machine do it? Release a harmless smell in one cave, and see if it can be detected in another cave nearby, to check if a link exists, and also how long the smell took to get there. And before anyone who knows me says it, no, I am not volunteering to be the source of the smell !!!

 

[cap n chris]

Check with Ship-Badger on the FOD regional thread; they used a Disto wind detector to good effect in Miss Graces Lane Cave IIRC. Mind you I think they cost a small fortune.
:shock:

On Mendip a student used a hand held anerometer for wind gauging in Shatter Cave which, again IIRC, picked up a draft of 0.9m/s but was insufficiently sensitive to be much use on the sort of soft breeze which can occasionally be detected by people.

 

[AndyF]

Like dye-tracing, I wonder if there might one day be a practical draught tracing technique? I know that the lightest trace of some potent smells can be picked up by cavers' noses, but can a machine do it? Release a harmless smell in one cave, and see if it can be detected in another cave nearby, to check if a link exists, and also how long the smell took to get there. And before anyone who knows me says it, no, I am not volunteering to be the source of the smell !!!

Interesting. The best thing to use may be a short life isotope.

This could be then used with a scintillation counter, or perhaps cruder, a photographic plate.

Problem is you might need to use "a lot" and the draught may blow it all back at you

 

[Peter Burgess]

The best thing to use may be a short life isotope.

How about radon? Or perhaps not......

 

[AndyF]

The best thing to use may be a short life isotope.

How about radon? Or perhaps not......

Probably thinking about a particulate rather than a gas.

A sticky photgraphic plate could then be used, that way the particle could fizz away at any time and be captured...

You'd need a control plate to compare and remove background radiation of course.

Hmmm, has this ever been tried I wonder...someone must have thought of it..

 

[Peter Burgess]

Surely there are some really smelly things like isocyanates (?) that a sniffer could detect?