DYO: BBC Link

[NigR]

Did I understand he wanted and access agreement tightened up?

I haven't changed my overall views on access. If it was down to me there would be no gates on any caves anywhere, just as I've always said. But it isn't down to me and this is Wales and I live here and I want to go caving. So I abide by the access restrictions in place because I've got better things to do than spend all my time going around removing gates that will only be put back the following week (although I always give someone else the key to open the entrance with because I absolutely loathe doing it). But in the case of Dan-yr-Ogof (a special case anyway in view of its showcave status) the present access restrictions are clearly not adequate - or, to be more specific, they did not work last Saturday and there is nothing in place to stop them not working again. So, yes I think something needs to be done. Any suggestions?

 

[hyweldavies]

More seriously...

A landowner, or club committee for that matter, would be very ill-advised to get involved with judging whether a trip is dangerous on a given occasion. Once starting on that road the implication is that trips that are OK'd are "safe" with all the liability worries that entails.  Basically everyone is better off with the onus of responsiblity on the participant. Experienced cavers occasionally make mistakes and that's all there is to it. Some mistakes are just nuances of judgement, others silly, and others plain daft. I've made all these categories of mistake over the years, and got away with it each time, but learnt something from fright, soaking, epic or whatever it might be, as it happens, albeit without hurting myself (much) nor being rescued. .

Nig can you honestly say you have never "sinned", despite having cast the metaphorical stone ?

Hywel

 

[Peter Burgess]

More seriously...

A landowner, or club committee for that matter, would be very ill-advised to get involved with judging whether a trip is dangerous on a given occasion. Once starting on that road the implication is that trips that are OK'd are "safe" with all the liability worries that entails.  Basically everyone is better off with the onus of responsiblity on the participant. Experienced cavers occasionally make mistakes and that's all there is to it. Some mistakes are just nuances of judgement, others silly, and others plain daft. I've made all these categories of mistake over the years, and got away with it each time, but learnt something from fright, soaking, epic or whatever it might be, as it happens, albeit without hurting myself (much) nor being rescued. .

Nig can you honestly say you have never "sinned", despite having cast the metaphorical stone ?

Hywel

You are so, so right, Hywel. There are so many phrases in your statement I want to hilight, but I haven't. Without any reference whatsoever to the Dan yr Ogof incident, I can tell you that so often it's those that weren't present on a trip who are quickest with their criticisms of what happened.

 

[cap n chris]

If it was down to me there would be no gates on any caves anywhere, just as I've always said.

From this is it fair to say you're not bothered much by caves suffering wanton damage?

 

[graham]

If it was down to me there would be no gates on any caves anywhere, just as I've always said.

From this is it fair to say you're not bothered much by caves suffering wanton damage?

I also wonder what view is taken on shafts that exist in remarkably close proximity to housing estates where many young children live.

 

[Joel Corrigan]

Before the papers print it, I returned last night from another epic in the cave when I actually got my nuts wet again.  Shocking.  What do you suggest I do?  Stay out of the cave until the next drought?  Build a submarine? In case you?ve forgotten what this cave is actually like, Nig, let me remind you.  This is an active river cave and its hydrology is constantly evolving.  A couple of years ago I knew as much as anyone about the likely effects of rain on the place, as I?d spent the last dozen years diving the sumps and working out what was going on.  Since my temporary three-year lapse of interest, though, the hydrology has definitely changed drastically and it?s gonna take me a while to get my head around it.  Fourteen years ago a group of us were flooded in, but as we were camping in the Far North a the time it wasn?t an issue.  By the time we got back to the entrance the levels had dropped.  No dramas, no forum, no bored little men typing crap.

I've been chatting with friends who've reminded me that in the past the cave was closed to all cavers.  The owner has it in his power to do so, and I'm sure that the staff at the showcave (and other showcaves around Britain) can access this forum.

I?ve deliberately not said anything about our little discoveries for two simple reasons: piracy and tempting fate.  It?s a bit silly, as our local cave pirate couldn?t get further than the showcave if his life depended upon it, but as I?m off caving in Spain for a bit of a jolly I?d rather the sneaky little dude didn?t find out anyway.  In addition, I?ve played this game too many times and the last thing you do is large up your success until you?ve pushed and surveyed it properly.  Still, we?ve reached a decent pitch and it?s trending west, and we?re a teeny bit excited....

 

[danthecavingman]

Congrats Joel,

Anything heading west towards the postulated streamway from the Giedd to Cribarth Inlet has got to be exciting!

Now is there any chance we can draw a line under this one and all get back to work / caving / whatever?

Dan.

 

[bubba]

Ok, i've had to edit this topic fairly heavily to try to keep things civil. Some of it probably won't make total sense now but i've done my best.

Any posts altered have the edit reason "removed bitching" at the bottom of them. This is tongue in cheek so please don't get outraged.

Please keep discussion civil and avoid personal issues from here on in folks - i'd really rather be listening to music and drinking some nice rioja than having to do this in the first place

 

[NigR]

A landowner, or club committee for that matter, would be very ill-advised to get involved with judging whether a trip is dangerous on a given occasion.

But the following is taken from the DYO Access regulations:

"While the showcave is open, the warden for the party must present their "wardens permit" and the completed pre-access declaration to the showcave staff who will allow access unless there is a sound reason to deny it. Such reasons might include high water or there already being three parties in the cave."

Do you think this is reasonable? What, for example, would your opinion be of any cavers who refused to accept the advice given to them by the showcave staff regarding a potential rise in water levels if this situation occurred?

 

[MARK NUNN]

I have caved with richard frost many times in D.y.O & there have been times that we have not entered the cave due to bad weather, so I feel a bit upset that he is getting a bit of a slagging off over getting it wrong this time, I would like to ask this. Who of you out there in your journey through this life has not made a mistake? due to whatever the reason, sometimes the mistakes we make we get away with, sometimes not, but we all make them, so before some of us start laying blame think back to the mistakes that you made when perhaps you should have known better, And then leave the bloke alone,!!!! mark Nunn welsh ambulance paramedic.

 

[cap n chris]

I would like to ask this. Who of you out there in your journey through this life has not made a mistake? due to whatever the reason, sometimes the mistakes we make we get away with, sometimes not, but we all make them, so before some of us start laying blame think back to the mistakes that you made when perhaps you should have known better, And then leave the bloke alone,!!!! mark Nunn welsh ambulance paramedic.

Crooked argument.

Similar to saying:

Just because all drivers have, at some point, broken the speed limit, it doesn't mean that they are disallowed voicing their opposition to other people speeding, especially if it is brazen and blatent.

 

[graham]

I'm not slagging either of them off  taking the piss, yes, but that's what cavers do.