DYO: BBC Link

[Joel Corrigan]

I made a reaction to this post late last night but it was subsequently removed, which is quite understandable because within that ill-informed paragraph I may have threatened unpleasantness to an individual.  I now realise that this was quite unnecessary and rude so I'm happy that it was taken off.  However, I need to reply to what seems to be a rather loaded thread so please don?t remove this one.  I?ll keep it as polite as I can...

Was this a publicity stunt for the showcave?  Oh come on...  Anyone who has ever caved with me knows that I hate getting wet & cold & would never agree to shiver in a bin bag for 24 hours.  If I did the cave would need to be equipped with pillows & a mattress.  Absurd!

As it's been pointed out, two experienced Wardens entered the cave on Saturday afternoon (myself and Rich Frost).  It had (apparently) not been raining for a couple of days (even though the hill was probably pretty sodden), and although the forecast was not good we figured that we could manage a quick few hours in the cave to go and continue exploration of something that we'd pushed into the week before.  Besides which, we wanted to recover the drill and I?m going away soon.  The water levels were acceptably low so we went for it.  Simple as that.  A risk that I?ve taken many times before and probably will do again.  Sorry if that offends the sensibilities of arm-chair cavers but that?s the way it is.  There?s a phrase about eggs and omelettes & explorers out there will understand what I?m talking about.  Those who don?t aren?t explorers.  Sorry.

Unfortunately for us, we got gripped by exploration fever & lost track of the time (there have been no significant discoveries in DYO for many years so who can blame us?).  When we got back to the Camel's Back, Thixotropic Passage was chest deep in water & we knew we were stuffed.  Got to the entrance lakes & even though we really didn't have much chance we headed down.  Probably got there an hour late as the low section before the arch was sumped.  Fought our way back upstream to Boulder Chamber & waited it out.  No dramas, no worries, just cold.

Made contact with WBCRT early in the morning (they'd been on site since late the night before), discussions were made about options based upon the weather, & we sat tight.  Three choices: do nothing, get diver-resupply, or get dived out through Pot Sump.  The last option was too risky: Rich doesn't dive.  In the end the divers did a supply run & we waited til Sunday night for the levels to drop.

The divers came in again via the lakes and escorted us out through minimal airspace.  Confronted by a gaggle of rescuers, friends, and press so we just kept our heads down and pretended not to be the cause of all the fuss....

I had originally intended to get the names of all the people who were involved and thank them for a job well done, but unfortunately I got so irritated by the snide comments from a certain individual that I had to bite....  From my point of view, the WBCRT performed admirably, and I'm immensely grateful that there are some very switched-on and selfless cavers active in the area.  Some of those involved are friends of mine, some I don?t know, and some who don?t like me very much.  Regardless of that, they all volunteered to give up their weekend and for that I?m more than obliged.  The obvious ones to thank are the divers (Rick Stanton, John Volanthen, Gavin Newman), those manning the telephone (Vince Allkins, Elsie Little), he who decided to put jacket potatoes & scones & jam in a daren-drum during the re-supply (Andy Harp) (!), and a cast of thousands.  It was particularly comforting to have a Surface Controller as clued-up as Brian Jopling running the show.  And I really am sorry that I haven't got a list of the others involved because I know I?m forgetting many.

I got wrapped up in the exploration of a cave that I?ve been obsessed with for decades.  If this had been anywhere other than a showcave it would have gone unnoticed. 

 

[Tony_B]

Joel, it was my cynical remark about a publicity stunt and I have already apologised for making it. And when I posted it I had no idea who the individuals concerned were.

I am aware of the history between yourself and the individual you are referring to and, as someone who has caved with both of you on many occasions, and counts you both as friends, I'm not taking sides.

However, whatever the history, the point about your judgement being flawed was valid. Saturday's weather forecast was unequivocal, and even from my viewpoint in Berkshire I was well aware that trips into DYO weren't an option on Saturday. That's why, when my mother-in-law told me the Welsh news were reporting cavers trapped in the cave my first instinct - given the timing - was that this had to be the annual DYO news 'story'. Someone else used the word 'astounded' when they found out who was involved and that was my reaction, too.

I understand your point about exploration fever: I'm an explorer too, and am as obsessed with DYO as you are. But come on, mate, Saturday was surely one of those days when you have to just throw up your hands and swear about the Welsh weather, and you can't really blame anyone for criticising your judgement.

 

[Tony_B]

I can say without equivocation that Ashford was genuinely extremely concerned about BAD publicity for the show cave and as equally concerned about the condition of the two trapped cavers.
I have known Ashford for nearly 40 years and am well aware that he likes a good story before opening but he would never stoop to this anymore than the two guys would agree to cooperate.

Which throws up another important point about this. I have made the point on this forum before that we should consider ourselves extremely fortunate that we enjoy access to DYO, and have to jump through relatively few hoops to do so. But every incident like this throws caving in DYO into sharp focus, and does our cause no favours.

 

[NigR]

Thanks to Joel for a well-reasoned account of his unfortunate experience.

I I would like to point out that when my initial comment was made I was completely unaware of the identities of the cavers involved. My subsequent posts, other than the one which was removed, would have been directed at any experienced cavers stupid enough to put themselves in this situation, no matter who they were.

On a factual basis, one point is in dire need of correction. Joel's statement that "It had (apparently) not been raining for a couple of days" is simply not true. As I initially stated, it had rained (quite heavily) from Friday evening well into the night. If, as stated in the press, Joel's fellow explorer does indeed live locally (Crynant) then he would have been well aware of this. Yes, it was fine first thing Saturday morning but to anyone familiar with South Wales weather patterns, allied to the well-publicised forecast ('Roof on the Stadium in Cardiff'), it was blindingly obvious what was going to happen next.

So far as exploration goes, I've done a fair bit myself. Yes, you can get a bit excited and carried away but the cave has been there a long time, it can always wait a little bit longer. A question for Joel - was whatever you found really worth all the hassle (and attendant bad publicity) that you caused?

Finally, a snippet of information that may be of interest. Late last night I was informed by a reliable local source that the same two cavers had recently exited the same cave under rapidly rising water conditions, having decided to enter the cave despite another party declining to do so. I really do find this hard to believe, given the circumstances of Saturday's fiasco, and I am hoping that the person who told me has got his facts wrong. So, a second question for Joel - have I been correctly informed?

 

[Ian Holmes]

Think a few people on here could do to experience a 25hr + beasting down some tight, deep Dachstein pothole with Joel before they start comment on his competency ... I know who I'd want with me if I was ever screwed up down some nasty shit-hole - not some mincers that do a lot more talking than doing.

I can speak for probably over 50 youngish cavers amongst others that would want him at there side above any other caver in the UK if it all went tits up ...

 

[Joel Corrigan]

For God?s sake: here we go again....  Of course my judgement was flawed: I've already said that we tried to get a quick trip in before the weather caught us out (and yes, Nig, my mate lives locally and as far as he was adamant that it hadn't rained for a few days).  Any guilt I feel for putting people out is between me and them, and not the rest of the world.  And any measures to improve the situation with regard to future rescues or flooding incidents that I'm involved with are likewise not applicable for this site.  I do my best to ignore some of the rubbish that?s spouted but I have the breaking-strain of a kit-kat.     

Had someone involved with the rescue publicly crucified me then I'd have bent over and received my punishment (grudgingly), but they didn't (I think this points out the differences between those who do and those who talk about it). 

DYO is a showcave and they thrive on publicity.  What possible harm can the management see that has come of this?  It was the first weekend of their Easter season and a couple of monkeys get stuck beyond the lakes for a few hours.  I'm told that as a news item it came above Wales winning the rugby: they couldn't have paid for that.  And I doubt that it did the WBCRT any harm either, as we all know that cave rescue is always desperate for funds.  And in actual fact more good may come of this than harm in terms of future situations.  I would have thought that the chairman of the DYOCAC would have understood this, even if some others obviously don't.

Let's put it into perspective, shall we?  Caving, like many other things in life, can be hazardous and every now and again we get stung.  If you put yourself at the pointy end often enough then the poo will hit the fan.  If you sit at your computer watching porn and never going underground then of course you can stand on your soap-box and be critical.  But it doesn't mean that you're worth listening to.

As my mate used to say, "it's only a bloody hole in the ground: what's all the fuss about?". 

 

[Tony_B]

Think a few people on here could do to experience a 25hr + beasting down some tight, deep Dachstein pothole with Joel before they start comment on his competency ... I know who I'd want with me if I was ever screwed up down some nasty shit-hole - not some mincers that do a lot more talking than doing.

This may be partially aimed at me. I can think of few people whose abilities and experience are the equal of Joel's, or that I would rather be with in a tight spot, but on Saturday he screwed up. As Nig has already pointed out, his companion lives locally and would have known that it rained on Fri night, and that fact combined with the weather forecast meant that Dan-yr-Ogof flooding on Saturday was a dead cert. Joel has already pointed out his long obsession with the cave and he, of all people, should have known the score.

Cavers are generally seen as irresponsible idiots who put other people's lives at risk for selfish motives. In the course of my work I encounter people almost every day who hold exactly that view and I patiently explain the alternative viewpoint. When asked the inevitable question about those who get trapped by flooding, I point out that this only happens if people ignore weather forecasts and go where they shouldn't in dodgy circumstances and, no matter how high your regard for Joel, it is impossible to deny that this is what happened on Saturday.

I can point to several hundred digging trips onto the Black Mountain over twenty-plus years (looking for exactly the same missing miles that Joel was seeking), as well as many dozens into DYO itself, and yet even my wide experience pales into insignificance compared to Nig's.

 

[Tony_B]

Joel, I posted my recent response to Ian Holmes's comments before I had seen your latest post.

To put the record straight, I am not Chairman of the DYO CAC, I am the Wardens' Secretary, but I hasten to point that my earlier post was not made in any official capacity but as an individual caver.

Your undoubted dedication to the cause does not render you immune to criticism, and while Nig's may have a personal edge much of what he wrote is indisputable. He is by no means the only person who would written off DYO last Saturday. Cave rescue teams have a policy of not criticising those they rescue and their silence does not justify your irresponsible actions.

And I really hope that what you found was worth it! 
 

 

[Joel Corrigan]

Tony, I had every intention of being humble before the bullets started flying but it's not in my nature to bend over and pick up the soap.  Please bear in mind that I wasn't the one who started firing first, but if needs be I'll certainly be the one to end it.  Of course I accept fault: I'm not that dumb, but I refuse to let someone target me and get away with it.  Simple as that.  So instead of saying "joel, you plonker, you screwed up" and leaving it at that, I get abuse from someone that I've done my best to ignore for the last year or so.  And although mildly amusing from time to time, this probably doesn't help the cause of caving in Wales very much.  God help us if the press discover what a bunch of narrow-minded bureaucrats we all are.

 

[menacer]

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-news/2008/03/18/rescued-pot-holers-to-return-to-cave-tomorrow-91466-20637537/

I Cant comment on Wales, but today here in the south west its glorious sunshine and blue skies...
I believe the actions of the guys going back in to restock today is really admirable and the responsable thing to do...
Well done guys...
Are you going to share the details of your discovery with us??? 

 

[Tony_B]

Quote: 'He said they checked the weather forecast before leaving for their trip, and said they would not have gone if severe weather warnings had been in place.

He said, ?On Saturday, it was forecast to be dry, There must have been a really heavy downpour when we were inside for the water levels to rise so high.?'

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

 

[ChrisJC]

This thread is really most unfortunatel.
OK, experienced cavers make bad judgement, get caught out, suffer the immediate consequences, but get out thanks to CRO. CRO (quite rightly) don't pass comment.
I'm sure the extended trip and unpleasant conditions underground gave plenty of time for reflection.
Some posts explaining what happened for the benefit of the caving community are posted.

I would like to think that all cavers are of a brethren. We sometimes make mistakes, we're there for each other (which we need to be - it is not without risk). Divisive threads like this one help nobody.

Chris.

 

[biffa]

God help us if the press discover what a bunch of narrow-minded bureaucrats we all are.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/what-lies-beneath-mossdale-caving-disaster-794268.html

Look at the last two paragraphs, I can only think of one place they may have got that idea.....  It's actually quite an interesting article too.

 

[cap n chris]

I would like to think that all cavers are of a brethren.

You're new to this hobby, I'm guessing. Other than football, I'm hard pressed to think of a pastime more tribalistic, fractured, seething and misanthropic than caving.

 

[ChrisJC]

I would like to think that all cavers are of a brethren.

You're new to this hobby, I'm guessing. Other than football, I'm hard pressed to think of a pastime more tribalistic, fractured, seething and misanthropic than caving.

Not new at all, been doing it for 16 years. I'm just on the periphery, and clearly have a naive and optimistic outlook on people!

Chris.

 

[Hughie]

I would like to think that all cavers are of a brethren.

You're new to this hobby, I'm guessing. Other than football, I'm hard pressed to think of a pastime more tribalistic, fractured, seething and misanthropic than caving.

You must move in different caving circles, Cap'n.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I would like to think that all cavers are of a brethren.

You're new to this hobby, I'm guessing. Other than football, I'm hard pressed to think of a pastime more tribalistic, fractured, seething and misanthropic than caving.

Not new at all, been doing it for 16 years. I'm just on the periphery, and clearly have a naive and optimistic outlook on people!

Chris.

ChrisJC, I'm with you. There are just a few idiots who make a loud noise and create an impression of discord and damaging tribalism. Most cavers that I have met are friendly, accommodating, and respectful. Most 'tribalism' is good-natured. This is even more true in the mining history world, I have found. Anyway, this is off topic, but perhaps that's just as well considering the track this thread has gone down up to now.

 

[caving_fox]

Biffa - great link. WHat a well writen article.

 

[graham]

No-one was hurt in the cave, after all (cf. Mossdale thread).

A valid point. It is merely unpleasant to sit it out in DYO. In Mossdale it is suicide. I am sure that the protagonists knew that and were able to judge their actions accordingly.

 

[hyweldavies]

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that not a single person on this forum hasn't made a bad judgement at some time or other. I'd go further, and suggest that few of us haven't done something right stupid at some time or another. A more influential fellow than me once said "let he who is without sin throw the first stone": I'm throwing nothing. I'd have thought 30 hours being cold and miserable was censure enough in any case.

Sense of proportion here chaps ....

Hywel