Encouraging more new people to go caving.

[BenM]

Are you "older" guys seriously telling me that the 1950/60's (apparently the Hay day of British caving) was really that bad that you don't want it back?

I read and hear many stories about how it was "better" in the old days! The packed nights at the Hunters and 'Craven Heffer' - where cavers from all over the country would be laughing and exchanging tales of adventure.

The exploration at home and abroad that went on, the characters that were formed and are now remembered. The friendly club rivalry, and the ?young tigers? pushing the sport forward and into new territory.

Do we really not want to get back to those ?heady? days?

I find that caving is more about the people you meet and the life/scene you?re involved with rather than just the challenge of the caves themselves. Try caving on your own ? it isn?t really that much fun! 

In my opinion? the more cavers we can get the better! Its all about the people!

------

So:

How we do that is up for debate ? but I ?m starting to believe the best option is to support the University clubs through helping train and offering advice to University leaders. I think a lot of the skills and knowledge that allows Uni clubs to do more interesting (and technical trips) has been lots over the years. Example: When I came to Bristol, hardly any of the ?young? UBSS people had done the Swildon?s Short Round!

But, I think the sport is actually beginning to turn around and we are approaching the critical mass of 20/30 something?s that will mean other ?young? people (both male and female) feel there is a place for them in this sport ? rather than just caving with lots of old men with beards! (Sorry old men with beards)

Just look at the people who are now appearing on this board as a prime example?.and the comments regarding Hidden Earth.

   

 

[Agrophobic]

I think the point is that if we don't replace our ageing numbers of cavers with younger newbies to maintain at least our current levels then the activity will become unsustainable in many respects. More new people doesn't necessarily mean more cavers, just keeping the status quo would be a good target.

Plenty of cavers in the Hunters last night. No doubt standing room only on wednesday night (like last wednesday night).

I don't see a decline in cavers.


Peter, can I ask you why you think "the activity will become unsustainable in many respects"?

Without wishing to sound like a grumpy old git, I don't need the following:-
Clubs
Magazines
Insurance
Club Huts (or should that come under clubs?)
Regional Councils
National Umbrella Organisations
Equipment Shops
Training
Access Agreements

But will happily contribute to and support all the above.

Unsustainability is surely a matter of perception.

My point exactly Hughie. and rather better put than my attempt.
also-I may need a car to maintain my current lifestyle but i do not NEED the things Hughie lists above to maintain my current caving. though i'm fully prepared to support some of them.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Without many aspects of the current infrastructure, built and maintained to its present level because there are enough cavers to do so, caving would become very much a selfish activity. The sharing of resources - whether physical or just information - is possible and potentially to everyone's benefit precisely because there are enough cavers to support it. For example, would we be able to just turn up and explore OFD if SWCC or an equivalent body never existed? Would those who insist on the present access arrangements be happy to permit people to enter and explore on an occasional and ad hoc basis? Yes of course we could enjoy our caving elsewhere but it would be a lot more limiting in terms of where we could go and what we could do. There are plenty of cavers who see no need for the infrastructure we have. Dare I say that's because they don't appreciate what it offers? Fresh blood keeps the convenience of caving in place. I have introduced my two sons to caving only because I have been able to pop into Bat Products and hire helmets and lamps for the day. I had no need to buy the gear for them on the off chance they might want to go again. How else might I have done it? Borrow the kit from friends? Yes of course, but the fewer other cavers there are, the less chance there is of being able to do even this.

 

[Brains]

I have seen Climbing clubs disappear due to a lack of new faces coming along, because the existing membership will and must decline - giving up, moving away, other commitments or even pegging out.
Any club or group will only continue if new faces can be encouraged to join and actively help in the running of the group, and the sport as a whole on a larger scale.
Without a committed base of organised people, clubs and groups our sport will become marginalised or even disappear completely. The independent participant will of course be able to continue by the actions of the many until this unseen support fades away. Then what?

If only one in 50 or a 100 that tries caving continues with it then we need to take 1000's on beginner trips - after all, they will be taking us when we are older and even less responsible than we are now...

 

[Christian_Chourot]

And what of cave rescue organisations? You're not telling me they would be as well manned. Don't we need then to exist?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Interesting point. Cave Rescue teams need fit and experienced members. When I have my zimmer frame, all I will be able to do is offer it as a belay point. When cavers are as rare as ZX Spectrums maybe we won't need rescue teams.

 

[graham]

All  of those things listed are needed in some measure or other, because without them it would be exceedingly difficult for much caving at all to be carried out. I won't try here to justify every item on Hugh's list but I could.

Ben's attitude is far healthier, though his comment about "young" UBSS and Swildons is just coincidence (though I did it in my first term at Bristol, along with free-diving sump two ...) No-one in the club has been to sump 12 for nearly a month now

 

[Slug]

How we do that is up for debate ? but I ?m starting to believe the best option is to support the University clubs through helping train and offering advice to University leaders. I think a lot of the skills and knowledge that allows Uni clubs to do more interesting (and technical trips) has been lots over the years. Example: When I came to Bristol, hardly any of the ?young? UBSS people had done the Swildon?s Short Round!

Good to see that the old elitist attitudes are making a comeback, after all, why should uneducated plebs like Me, who only did an apprenticeship be allowed to partake of such an upper class pastime ?.
  Having not been to University, I'm at a loss to explain just how I managed to start caving at all, let alone continue for 20 years (No I don't have a beard), I must have slipped through the defences, along with a few Brick layers, Welders, Plumbers, Gardeners, Motor Mechanics, and other assorted Riff Raff, then went on to join a club   

There are oh so many different way people can be encouraged to become cavers, so why should only ONE route get all the help ?.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Hey, what's the view like up there on the high horse?    :tease:

Just possibly, this isn't an elitist attitude. It might just be that if you want to identify a large group of young people looking for something to do in their spare time now they are out in the 'wide world', the obvious place to look is the university. i.e. the 'best' thing to do is the 'easiest' - no reflection on the quality or educational standard of the youngsters.

If it's any consolation, most of the new members we take on are individuals like yourself with a personal interest in getting underground, and do not come from the uni clubs.

 

[graham]

There are oh so many different way people can be encouraged to become cavers, so why should only ONE route get all the help ?.

Not all the help, but it does have to be said that Uni clubs do quite well in this regard.

 

[Slug]

but I ?m starting to believe the best option is to support the University clubs through helping train and offering advice to University leaders. I think a lot of the skills and knowledge that allows Uni clubs to do more interesting (and technical trips) has been lots over the years.

Look like it to Me.

My point is, there are a multitude of ways to start and continue, but what is being advocated here is to put all the eggs in just one basket.
What about Schools, Scouts/Guides and other Youth groups, Local sports centers. Work place sports and social clubs, outdoor Centers,The Armed Forces, the list goes on.
 The topic is Encourage NEW people to start caving, if you're a member of a University Club, then surely You've already taken it up.  Uni. clubs also, to some extent have an almost captive market, with an influx of potential new members every September. Not only that, their rules tend to make them open only to students.
If we are going to use our finite resources to bring more people into caving, then should we not consider Everybody, not just a few ?.  

I'm not anti University clubs, far from it, They do do a grand job, but as you said Peter, it is a Wide World out there, so let's look there as well.

 

[ian.p]

i agree with slug uni clubs are generaly prety sorted and whilst they should continue to be suported this route into caving is already and has for a long time been quite well established and with organisations like CHECC and the like in place can probably be left to sort themselves out in the most part. 

 

[Chris J]

What about Schools, Scouts/Guides and other Youth groups, Local sports centers. Work place sports and social clubs, outdoor Centers,The Armed Forces, the list goes on.

You are absolutely right but it's not that easy...
Consider firstly that we are talking about supporting university caving clubs - i.e. clubs which already exist - rather than supporting groups who want to do one off trips. So were not talking about try caving - but continuing to cave.

There are never likely to be school, scouts or youth group caving clubs. For one they need to do a variety of activities and secondly they are all under 18's which mean they can't just organise and take themselves - they need a leader etc.. so going caving every weekend is out of the question. Therfore all you get are these groups giving kids taster sessions (which already happens). Work based caving clubs - good idea but then there can't be many of these around and surely if you and a few mates from work want to go caving you'll either organise yourself or all join the same club? The armed forces - CSCC does pretty well for itself I rekon.

What we really need is a way for regular caving clubs to recruit new members from the 'wider world' in the same way the university groups recruit people from the captive audience of students.

Of course clubs have to want to do this.. and then we need to find people who want to go caving and put the two together (the idea behind Try Caving.co.uk). Clubs need to be organised to accept new members by running novice weekends (or try caving weekends) where lots of people try caving and join the club together (like they do at University)

The YSS (hopefully Chris Tate will post a reply here) - are doing exactly this and I was at the YSS during one of their 'Try Caving' weekends - excellent stuff and I'm sure they've got some new members from this. Sure you take 20 people caving and 5 stick with it - but that is all uni clubs do!

Regular clubs need to get on with attracting new members from the wider populace just like uni clubs do at the freshers fairs. And how does a club do this? What about advertising in the local press, notes and flyers in the local pubs/ outdoor shops etc... 

Andy Sparrow said we need a 'continue caving' campaign - well if people try caving with him or someone else then we need to get them into a regular club. So it is in down to our clubs to go out there and make themselves know to people and be open and welcoming.

Incidentally you might say that not all clubs need to do this work - some are less suited than others... but those clubs serve another purpose - as somewhere for people to move on to (can't be many people who joined the BEC as their first club..?)

 

[MSD]

Living in a sparsely populated country (Sweden) without many cavers, it's interesting to look at the list and comment on what we have:

Clubs - only really a national federation. One or two smaller clubs, but very low level of activity
Magazines - one quarterly A5 magazine (until recently with a black and white cover looking just like Descent circa early 1970s!)
Insurance - no
Club Huts (or should that come under clubs?) - no
Regional Councils - no
National Umbrella Organisations - no (one unitary national federation)
Equipment Shops - not really, I buy most stuff from Inglesport either when I am over, or by post
Training - yes
Access Agreements - in a couple of cases (e.g. access to the wild part of a show cave). One cave is gated for conservation reasons, key available through the national federation. Sweden has free access to all countryside, so no big problem to access caves.

Cave rescue - arrangements made through the mountain rescue. Volunteer cavers available as backup for a serious rescue (but we've never had one!)

Despite the small scale, I think our caving scene is nevertheless quite lively. Trips happen both at home and abroad. New cave gets discovered and surveyed. So "bigger is better" isn't a particularly convincing argument from my perspective.

Mark

 

[whitelackington]

How we do that is up for debate ? but I ?m starting to believe the best option is to support the University clubs through helping train and offering advice to University leaders. I think a lot of the skills and knowledge that allows Uni clubs to do more interesting (and technical trips) has been lots over the years. Example: When I came to Bristol, hardly any of the ?young? UBSS people had done the Swildon?s Short Round!

Good to see that the old elitist attitudes are making a comeback, after all, why should uneducated plebs like Me, who only did an apprenticeship be allowed to partake of such an upper class pastime ?.
  Having not been to University, I'm at a loss to explain just how I managed to start caving at all, let alone continue for 20 years (No I don't have a beard), I must have slipped through the defences, along with a few Brick layers, Welders, Plumbers, Gardeners, Motor Mechanics, and other assorted Riff Raff, then went on to join a club     

There are oh so many different way people can be encouraged to become cavers, so why should only ONE route get all the help ?.

There does seem to be a stunning number of plumbers / heating engineers
who are cavers, I haven't heard them banging on about when they were at university.
For many years the Bracknell Chairman was a dustman.
It is all about how keen you are, not your level of education.

 

[Elaine]

Very true Mick, but the thing about Universities is it is an accumulation of young adults who are about the right age to target. It is nothing to do with their level of education, just that they are an ideal group who can learn caving together and encourage each other. It is a lot easier to take up something new if you are surrounded by others doing the same. After University, if they are properly keen they will be perfectly capable of finding themselves a local club.

Under 18's meet in various groups as have been listed like school, scout groups etc, but that is a whole different area with more bureaucracy involved.

 

[BenM]

I don't want to pore petrol on an obviously burning bonfire here, but I don't think I'm being elitist any more:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/main.jhtml?xml=/education/2003/11/01/tenuni26.xml
(Anybody got more upto date stats - I'm sure its probably gone up from 43% in 2003)

Uni clubs are basically caver training production lines - they have to be, otherwise they close in 3 years. It is that simple. Training fresher?s to a competent level is hard work - it takes a lot of hard work and dedication from a small group of "experienced" individuals in a club.

Some of you obviously think I am wrong with my belief that the best (but I never said only) option at the moment is to support Uni clubs with training and advice. If this is the case, then I ask you:

What help, (if any) do non-university caving clubs require in order to get people to start and continue caving?

Please don't simply shift the focus of the argument... answer the question!

P.S: On a personal note : My dads a joiner, my mum runs a small shop - I worked damn hard to get to where I am ... So please, get off your "elitist argument" high horse.

 

[Gina]

There does seem to be a stunning number of plumbers / heating engineers
who are cavers, I haven't heard them banging on about when they were at university.
For many years the Bracknell Chairman was a dustman.
It is all about how keen you are, not your level of education.

Nobody has implied it has anything to do with your level of education. University is merely an excellent resource to find a large group of young people. Anybody can join most uni clubs, without being a student or member of the university, you just need to spend some time with the club (like any other club) for membership to be accepted.

I tried caving with an outdoor centre when I was younger, thoroughly enjoyed it and would have liked to carry on. At 14 that was difficult if not impossible.  I didn't even know caving clubs existed at that time.  My university didn't have a caving club either so a few of us tried to set one up.  It didn't get very far because it lacked the knowledge and experience feeding down from the top. In hindsight it would have been quite acceptable I think to contact another club to ask for advice and guidance.  At the time from the outside looking in though the sport seemed quite unapproachable.  I now know that isn't the case and cavers are fantastic friendly people keen to get new people involved.  It was only because I moved on to a university with a club that I did get involved as they had the means to train, give time to freshers and provide them with all the kit. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

I'll go along with the 'unapproachable' theme.

When I first started taking an interest in going underground, I was looking for likely places for mine entrances. Having identified two possible shafts, it was with trepidation that we climbed down into one of them on a fixed ladder, not because we were fearful of the place itself, but in case we bumped into the 'experts' who were down there at the same time, and got a telling off for being where we shouldn't have been. It was only later when the same group got a story in the local paper and invited interested people to get in touch that we joined and found out they were actually quite human and normal. This was in the 1970s though - no internet in those days.

 

[Gina]

I think the internet is often the first port of call for a lot of people wanting information, for instance on how to start caving.  I certainly don't look in the yellow pages anymore for contact details. Therefore I think a lot more could be made of club websites do encourage people to start caving or join a club. 

Not picking on any in particular, browsing through a few I had these thoughts...

...most websites suggest just turning up at the hut and chatting to members.  This is probably ok for people who live quite close though some indication of the best time to turn up might be useful

...some websites give me the impressions you need to be a caver already to join the club, I suspect this isn't true though not many clubs indicate if they can cater for new people (maybe that's because they can't) i.e can you borrow an oversuit, helmet and light for the first few trips until you've decided you like it? how much would that cost?

...often you need two people to accept your application which needs to go to committee - whilst this I imagine is normally just a formality it does sound a bit like a test and could be off putting. Perhaps a light hearted sentence telling people it is just a formality could also be in there.

...one website said 'Most members will want to have caved with you before signing your form' and a couple of paragraphs above says 'currently membership numbers about 250' Now I'm guessing in reality you don't have to cave with all 250 members  :-\

Just a few thoughts to get the ball rolling of how we encourage people to take up/continue caving