Encouraging more new people to go caving.

[cap n chris]

How would anyone know:

a) how many already go caving?
b) whether or not more or less people go caving at any particular point in time?

 

[dunc]

Clubs are no longer necessary for a healthy, vibrant expanding sport.

I would disagree with that, clubs have always played a part and will continue to do so. If there are no clubs, what happens to the club huts??

To further illustrate my point, the dark-places forum is proving rather successful at introducing newcomers to caving, and it's not a club, at least not in the traditional sense.

I'm sure DP has been successful, I know one of the clubs I am involved in has gained most of its members from people looking on the net - a respectable net presence is a very useful tool for any club/DP-style-non-club!

IIRC certain access agreements specify club access rather than individuals, becoming a DIM does not allow you to request permits, so again that is something else clubs are useful for.. blah etc you get the picture (too tired to think right now ).

 

[Cave Mapper]

... surely caving as part of a club, drawing on a wealth of experience, knowledge, contacts and caving buddies is vastly more rewarding than doing it on your own?

Both are rewarding in different ways.

I started caving with a work colleague, and we chose not to join a club because it was far more rewarding to explore the caves on our own. I joined a club 18 months later when my caving partner moved away. I was surprised to find that many of the 'very experienced' club cavers had done less caves, less rigging, less route finding and were less able to plan a successful trip than I was. Their caving experience was surely far less rewarding than ours.

 

[Cave Mapper]

Clubs are no longer necessary for a healthy, vibrant expanding sport.

I would disagree with that, clubs have always played a part and will continue to do so.

Yes, clubs have always played a part and they will continue to do so. But that doesn't make them essential.

BTW I think clubs are good, I wouldn't like to see them disappear, they fulfil lots of useful functions.

My underlying point here is that if we are trying to encourage newcomers to the sport, then we shouldn't restrict our thinking to trying to get people to join the traditional caving clubs.

 

[Known by None]

14 months ago I would never even have conceived the notion of going caving, I stumbled across Dark-places and after a few underground trips in mines such as Box and Ridge I was encouraged to go to Mendip, introduced to Swildons via the Wessex cave club hut and as a result the rest just feel in place. I'd like to think I am quite young too, I mean I don't have any grey hairs and I am under 30  After lurking around the club a few times I met up with nefarious sorts such as Les and Cookie, and the rest is history.
I originally considered clubs to be rather political and unapproachable.... and perhaps that is sometimes still the case, but they are also full of good and inspirational folk too, however I would never have made the effort or had the confidence to find out without the help and advice from people I met on the forums.
So at least in my experience the more casual non committal "just turn up and see if you like it" that can be found on certain forums are a great way to make that bold step into a club which always has something going on to keep me interested.

A nice partnership that I have since seen work in exactly the same way for many others too!

 

[Chris J]

I am not against the 'Try Caving' initiative but I do feel it has missed the point. Thousands of people already try caving every year - what we really need is a 'Continue Caving' initiative. In other words we should ensure that people of any age who want to take up caving are facilitated and encouraged to do so, both through BCA and clubs.

Actually the 'Try Caving' initiative is all about getting people to continue caving.... If you log into the Try Caving website you will be able to visit a section called downloads. I've just had to re-install this so at the mo there is only one document in there - this was circulated to every club when the campaign began.... http://www.trycaving.co.uk/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=35&Itemid=54

I will quote the first paragraph for you

"The campaign is about removing all the obstacles to starting caving and continuing to cave, not about ?selling? caving to people and simply recruiting more cavers. We want to help people who are interested in caving. Along the way we hope the publicity generated will also benefit caving by making the general public more aware of what caving is about"   

 

[Hughie]

Some of the posts in this thread have mentioned barriers. What barriers - I've never come across any - only those I've put in place myself.

Been caving for 20 odd years, about half of which as a non club member. Just caving with friends. There are, certainly down here, a wealth of information ie guide books, surveys etc readily available. As we wanted to do more, we found out more - eventually joining clubs precipitating easier access to keys and gaining other club related benefits.

I can't help wondering if there is just a lack of drive and initiative amongst the rest of the world (ie outside of the caving community). That initiative must surely come from those considering caving again (having tried it), not from within the caving community - we've already got it!

You can drag a cow to a water trough - but you can't make the fecker drink.

It may well be up to us to support, aid and nurture people that wish to continue caving - Gnomie is a glowing example of this - but it only works if the participant is a willing to be a participant - which is their individual choice.

 

[graham]

How would anyone know:

a) how many already go caving?
b) whether or not more or less people go caving at any particular point in time?

You cannot, except by guesswork. Cavers have been guessing these figures for many, many years and they are, in my opinion, still no more accurate than they ever were.

All we can know are things like how many individual cavers carry BCA PI insurance at any given time.

 

[Glenn]

How would anyone know:

a) how many already go caving?
b) whether or not more or less people go caving at any particular point in time?

I guess you mean for those that are not members of BCA?

Cheers,

Glenn

 

[Peter Burgess]

How would anyone know? There are a number of measures, a few already mentioned, and of different levels of reliability.

Here are 4 more.

A subjective measure based on how busy certain popular caves seem to be.
The numbers of people using well-known accommodation facilities.
Turnover of caving retail outlets.
Levels of club membership.

None of which could be used as a definitive measure of activity, but when taken together might reveal a trend.

 

[Chris J]

Some of the posts in this thread have mentioned barriers. What barriers - I've never come across any - only those I've put in place myself.

Been caving for 20 odd years, about half of which as a non club member. Just caving with friends. There are, certainly down here, a wealth of information ie guide books, surveys etc readily available. As we wanted to do more, we found out more - eventually joining clubs precipitating easier access to keys and gaining other club related benefits.

I can't help wondering if there is just a lack of drive and initiative amongst the rest of the world (ie outside of the caving community). That initiative must surely come from those considering caving again (having tried it), not from within the caving community - we've already got it!

You can drag a cow to a water trough - but you can't make the fecker drink.

It may well be up to us to support, aid and nurture people that wish to continue caving - Gnomie is a glowing example of this - but it only works if the participant is a willing to be a participant - which is their individual choice.

The thing is that people are busy these days, they do lots of things and aren't going to nag and pester people to go caving. So they think they might like to try caving, they send a few emails, the responses are luke warm and they bin the idea... And then at the same time people contact 'other' outdoor sports and get a better response.... so off they go and do that instead.


Try these barriers for someone who is interested in caving:

Not knowing who to contact
Not having any kit
No beginners trips available
No training available

I know that all the above are easily overcome - but that is because we know where to get info, kit and training etc... we need to make sure that they are easily overcome - that people who look for this information find it easily - hence the try caving website and initiative.

We need to make it easy for someone to try caving and keep caving  - that is what we mean by removing barriers and obstacles.

 

[cap n chris]

Seems that all the questions can be answered by relatively quick research undertaken on the internet. Whether or not the end result is achieved without going via an outdoor pursuits provider is another matter, however ("he who pays the piper calls the tune").

"I'll paint your house for free*; don't bother paying a professional".


* "One day, maybe; when I can be arsed. But then again, possibly never".

 

[Chris J]

Seems that all the questions can be answered by relatively quick research undertaken on the internet. Whether or not the end result is achieved without going via an outdoor pursuits provider is another matter, however ("he who pays the piper calls the tune").

"I'll paint your house for free*; don't bother paying a professional".


* "One day, maybe; when I can be arsed. But then again, possibly never".

I'm not sure what you are getting at here Chris - care to explain it for me?

thanks,
Chris

 

[cap n chris]

Yes, Chris: my contention is that it is easy to try caving and keep caving - if you've got a budget for it. If you haven't then you're largely going to have to depend upon the goodwill of others in the formative stages of your new pastime. If clubs provided pretty much an identical service to the professional outdoors industry, yet free and on demand, for wanna-be cavers they'd find plenty of takers. However, this would be analogous (hence my earlier comment) to someone looking for free home decoration instead of hiring a painter & decorator - the people volunteering are not going to drop their other priorities in life to cater for someone they don't know.

I'm not convinced that there are barriers to trying caving and/or keeping caving other than newbie people lacking sufficient desire and motivation to venture underground (for whatever reason); but I guess most newcomers who try caving would be unlikely to say that it is "easy"! - perhaps it is because caving is more physically demanding and psychologically daunting than many other outdoor pursuits that it isn't exactly top of people's lists of things to do!

"Not knowing who to contact" seems a pretty feeble excuse with the arrival of the internet: it may have been a valid point ten years ago though.

 

[menacer]

"Not knowing who to contact" seems a pretty feeble excuse with the arrival of the internet:

Theres an Irony here isnt there Honey..  :hug:    :tease:

 

[Agrophobic]

May i ask if there is a need to encourage more people to go caving?
Surely in order to conserve the cave we want as little traffic as possible.
I can see that cave guides need the business and that clubs need new members in order to survive but there is plenty of information out there, both on the net and in books and magazines, for those who are willing to make the effort. this may appear to be a selfish suggestion but then so is restricting cave access to club cavers only.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I am all for limiting the number of cavers in the UK to 10, as long as I am one of them, and as long as I can continue to take advantage of the BCA insurance policy at current rates, and as long as I can continue to choose which caves I wish to visit without having to sort out an access arrangement for each one before I go, and as long as someone else publishes a nice bi-monthly magazine at their expense and as long as there are a good variety of caving equipment outlets for me to choose from. Hey, something in that equation doesn't add up.  :-\ 

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think the point is that if we don't replace our ageing numbers of cavers with younger newbies to maintain at least our current levels then the activity will become unsustainable in many respects. More new people doesn't necessarily mean more cavers, just keeping the status quo would be a good target.

 

[Hughie]

I think the point is that if we don't replace our ageing numbers of cavers with younger newbies to maintain at least our current levels then the activity will become unsustainable in many respects. More new people doesn't necessarily mean more cavers, just keeping the status quo would be a good target.

Plenty of cavers in the Hunters last night. No doubt standing room only on wednesday night (like last wednesday night).

I don't see a decline in cavers.

Peter, can I ask you why you think "the activity will become unsustainable in many respects"?

Without wishing to sound like a grumpy old git, I don't need the following:-
Clubs
Magazines
Insurance
Club Huts (or should that come under clubs?)
Regional Councils
National Umbrella Organisations
Equipment Shops
Training
Access Agreements

But will happily contribute to and support all the above.

Unsustainability is surely a matter of perception.

 

[Christian_Chourot]

Without wishing to sound like a grumpy old git, I don't need the following:-
Clubs
Magazines
Insurance
Club Huts (or should that come under clubs?)
Regional Councils
National Umbrella Organisations
Equipment Shops
Training
Access Agreements

But will happily contribute to and support all the above.

Unsustainability is surely a matter of perception.

That's a rather pedantic take isn't it? We don't need cars but they're necessary to maintain our current lifestyle.