Falling on Cows Tails

[cap n chris]

I'd go further and say that use of the word 'shame' in this context is patronising and arrogant.

I'd go further but I shan't insult you. You can DIY on that front quite adequately, one suspects.

 

[cap n chris]

You've expressed this view once or twice (or 20 times?) before, and I can certainly see the advantage of reducing the amount of stuff attached to the central maillon, but I;m struggling to picture the set-up. If you have the hand jammer and foot-loop attached to the long cow's tail, doesn't this mean that when using the cow's tails on a traverse or approaching a downward pitch, you have the foot-loop etc dangling down and potentially getting caught on rock flakes or your own feet?
This seems so unwieldy to me that I feel I've misunderstood something, Do you have a photo of your set-up?

It's slicker and more subtle than that. Not presently. No.

 

[cap n chris]

I also enjoy the fear and worry that leads people to untie and retie their knots and worry about shock loadings etc. on cowstails (despite the lack of evidence of people either breaking cowstails or injuring themselves badly falling onto them)

Because the BCA E&Q committee publicised the posit that it is the "done thing" to do this I have been doing so in a professional capacity (because we use safety connectors with customers in our commercial caving exploits) on a near daily basis since 2016; having now undone and retied safety connector knots over 15,000 times obviously I'd prefer not to have been required to so from an insurable/best practice/advisory happenstance but hey ho, that's what happens when something gets put into print; some people might choose to ignore it. I'm not going to because that's potentially into the category of gross negligence.

 

[Fjell]

I'm not sure how you're expressing those probabilities. Do you mean 1:1,000 and 1:1,000,000? If so the former seems a bit high?

1 in every thousand years vs million. Guess. If you use a risk assessment matrix you have severity on one axis and order of magnitude jumps on the other (ie 10^-1 to 10^-6. Severity goes usually in about 4-5 steps from an injury to multiple fatalities (or environmental fubar you can see from space, it happens).

People have serious problems grasping high consequence, low prob events in my not inconsiderable experience of trying to explain them to senior management. You usually need to scare them a bit how it might end their career and even land them in jail. If you have hundreds or thousands of such risks in your operation you can see why once in a thousand years starts to look too dodgy. An example is driving. The normal rate of car accidents is completely unacceptable to a company if they are accountable, it has to be 10-100 times lower.

 

[cap n chris]

Because the BCA E&Q committee publicised the posit that it is the "done thing" to do this I have been doing so in a professional capacity (because we use safety connectors with customers in our commercial caving exploits) on a near daily basis since 2016; having now undone and retied safety connector knots over 15,000 times obviously I'd prefer not to have been required to so from an insurable/best practice/advisory happenstance but hey ho, that's what happens when something gets put into print; some people might choose to ignore it. I'm not going to because that's potentially into the category of gross negligence.

E&T committee, apols.

 

[cap n chris]

1 in every thousand years vs million. Guess. If you use a risk assessment matrix you have severity on one axis and order of magnitude jumps on the other (ie 10^-1 to 10^-6. Severity goes usually in about 4-5 steps from an injury to multiple fatalities (or environmental fubar you can see from space, it happens).

People have serious problems grasping high consequence, low prob events in my not inconsiderable experience of trying to explain them to senior management. You usually need to scare them a bit how it might end their career and even land them in jail.

Indeedy; hence why people should not use snaplinks. The resultant risk from them is so immediate that you might not live to explain what happened. Swiss fatality, the Jules (non-fatal, but he lucky boy so no big die) incident, being two cases in point.

 

[Fulk]

Well, I've had a look in Alpine Caving Techniques and did not find any reference to 'cord of shame' (although it wasn't a very exhaustive search), but I did find the following:

Some cavers use three cowstails, the third one being a single long one attached to the side opposite the double cowstails . . . This adds weight and bulk, but can be useful when getting off rope at the top of a pitch. Here the user can clip it into a traverse line. This allows the user to leave the other long cowstail attached to his ascender, thereby avoiding the risk of dropping the latter (quite an annoying situation, which happens!). It can also be useful at rebelays when one is using a foot ascender. In short, it's up to each individual to test the alternatives and then decide for himself.

PS I do agree with cap n chris about the (non)-use of snaplinks.

 

[ChrisJC]

Indeedy; hence why people should not use snaplinks. The resultant risk from them is so immediate that you might not live to explain what happened. Swiss fatality, the Jules (non-fatal, but he lucky boy so no big die) incident, being two cases in point.

Can you provide a link to these for me please. I use snapgate krabs in my Petzl Spelegyca and this thread is giving me cause to consider my options.

Chris.

 

[Fjell]

Indeedy; hence why people should not use snaplinks. The resultant risk from them is so immediate that you might not live to explain what happened. Swiss fatality, the Jules (non-fatal, but he lucky boy so no big die) incident, being two cases in point.

The Swiss incident would have been prevented by maintaining two points of contact. That is the key lesson I believe.

 

[cap n chris]

Can you provide a link to these for me please. I use snapgate krabs in my Petzl Spelegyca and this thread is giving me cause to consider my options.

Chris.

Hopefully this large scale cut and paste should have functioning links within it....

start quote

cap n chris said:
The near death incident which is apposite re snap links which I recall most vividly is Jules Carter's horrifying fall in France. You can read it and see the photos online in the Mountain Rescue magazine, issue 50, 2014, p24-27.
www.mountain.rescue.org.uk

Issue 50 Mountain Rescue Autumn 2014 - Mountain Rescue England and Wales
Perhaps not surprisingly, mountain rescue team members occasionally get injured too. In this issue, Jules Carter described his experience of being the casualty in a cave rescue accident whilst on holiday in France. Elsewhere, Patterdale MRT celebrated their fiftieth anniversary, Russ Hore talked...
www.mountain.rescue.org.uk www.mountain.rescue.org.uk

I said I'd not bother but here's the Swiss fatality info. Thread 'SRT kit - deadly accident in Switzerland' https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/srt-kit-deadly-accident-in-switzerland.15351/

end quote

 

[cap n chris]

The Swiss incident would have been prevented by maintaining two points of contact. That is the key lesson I believe.

The Swiss incident was (very likely) caused by the person attempting to move their 2nd safety connector along the traverse line while their other one was connected to a snapgate onto the footloop assembly; in finding the manoeuvre too strenuous, and unable to complete it, she sat back into the harness which instantly unclipped itself and so she immediately fell to her death. It wasn't a two points of contact failure; it was a snapgate SRT rig/architecture flaw, which had a lethal failure relevant to a very specific but (not entirely) unusual manoeuvre.

 

[Bob Mehew]

https://cncc.org.uk/fixed-aids/anchor-safety/ was generated off the back of a near miss by a respected caver.

 

[Wardy]

I have caved using one short and one long cowstail, with the foot jammer and foot loop attached into the long cowstail krab since the mid 80"s

I haven't struggled on traverses or more complex rigging and have travelled widely using it.
I don't find the jammer or footloop gets in the way, I am just used to it.
I actually like the fact that wherever I attach my long cowstail I always have a foot loop that i can use to step in if required.
I don's see that the footloop only functions with a jammer, it is a great aid on its own.

What I also really like is that my kit is really compact, stripped back, light and efficient.
In line with that I have never bothered with a handled ascender preferring a basic.

As with many techniques / equipment it is a case of learning how to get the most from your choices and understanding your options.

 

[cap n chris]

https://cncc.org.uk/fixed-aids/anchor-safety/ was generated off the back of a near miss by a respected caver.

Whenever I'm training people in SRT I show them this with my classroom in-situ anchor(s) as a precautionary demo; the result is everyone who witnesses it ditches using snapgates for their safety connectors. Snapgates are lethal; frankly I'm amazed BCA doesn't publicise this as a matter of course. Cavers who use them are either wilfully obtuse, woefully unaware or risk-takers with a death wish. The risk(s) have been known about for over a decade and yet newcomers (and established cavers) seem surprised to hear the danger when it is pointed out to them. How is this the case?

 

[Wardy]

Oh forgot to say that whilst I have my kit fairly stripped back I do not bother with snap gates for the reasons above
I use screw gates all round and again have got used to them, so automatically prepare them and very rarely if ever find them stuck

 

[Fjell]

The Swiss incident was (very likely) caused by the person attempting to move their 2nd safety connector along the traverse line while their other one was connected to a snapgate onto the footloop assembly; in finding the manoeuvre too strenuous, and unable to complete it, she sat back into the harness which instantly unclipped itself and so she immediately fell to her death. It wasn't a two points of contact failure; it was a snapgate SRT rig/architecture flaw, which had a lethal failure relevant to a very specific but (not entirely) unusual manoeuvre.

I don’t want to be weird here, but it was exactly a failure to have two points of attachment that led to the fall. She only had one when she sat down, and it failed. On an aid traverse I would be using my third cowstail (safety cord). Since you might be using it anyway to pass knots using the footloop, I don’t see why you would not use it as it is just sitting there. Using the French system they don’t automatically have a safety cord, so up to them to be more careful or add it. I sometimes don’t bother taking a safety cord on simple pitches with no traverses if I am using a “light” SRT set, because there is no obvious risk. I can assure you I do on Battleaxe, and I’m buddy checking my wife as well.

 

[cap n chris]

I would consider using my longer safety connector with a mid-way-clove-hitched-additional-carabiner to serve as a 2nd/3rd attachment point for close connectivity on an awkward traverse, rather than overcomplexifying my rig with knitting.

 

[caving_fox]

FWIW I use 3 cow's tail plus a cord of shame. And I still don't find my SRT kit bulky or difficult.

I have a very short and medium as one length of rope and then a separate rope with my long. All 3 with snapgates because I will always have 2 of them connected (in reverse directions) even when passing bolts as I move the 3rd before disconnecting one. 2 Separate ropes alienates a single point of failure being the knot attachment to the central D ring.

I am quite tall with long arms so this setup may not work for everyone. Having a very short is comforting on awkward traverses etc.

Hand jammer and cord are connected with maillons and permanently on the Dring ready to use. I dislike the concept of having to remember to find/attach/not drop an essential part of kit mid-trip (or worse mid pitch!).

 

[paul]

Well, I've had a look in Alpine Caving Techniques and did not find any reference to 'cord of shame' (although it wasn't a very exhaustive search), but I did find the following:

Some cavers use three cowstails, the third one being a single long one attached to the side opposite the double cowstails . . . This adds weight and bulk, but can be useful when getting off rope at the top of a pitch. Here the user can clip it into a traverse line. This allows the user to leave the other long cowstail attached to his ascender, thereby avoiding the risk of dropping the latter (quite an annoying situation, which happens!). It can also be useful at rebelays when one is using a foot ascender. In short, it's up to each individual to test the alternatives and then decide for himself.

FWIW, this is what I have been doing for the past few years. Using the Petzl FOOTCORD for the footloop cuts down on the weight and bulk of having a third cowstail.
I'm not worried about the small extra weight and bulk of the third cowstail, especially when usually having to cope with carrying tackle bags full of rope as well!

 

[ChrisB]

I've had a look in Alpine Caving Techniques and did not find any reference to 'cord of shame'

Having made the claim, I have looked too, and can't find it either, so apologies if I'm wrong. I'm sure I read it in a French reference book, and until recently ACT is the only one I had. My point stands, however, that I think cap n chris was using it as a quote, not a direct criticism.