So, cap n chris, were you winding us up by your use of the word 'shame'? Were you taking the mick? Were you having a laugh? Were you quoting somebody or other? Or do you really believe that it is 'shameful' to have two safety cords as cowstails and a third connected (permanently) to one's foot-jammer?
Falling on Cows Tails
- Thread starter TheBitterEnd
- Start date
So, cap n chris, were you winding us up by your use of the word 'shame'? Were you taking the mick? Were you having a laugh? Were you quoting somebody or other? Or do you really believe that it is 'shameful' to have two safety cords as cowstails and a third connected (permanently) to one's foot-jammer?
cavemanmike
Well-known member
Your SRT shouldn’t have any excess loops in it . I’ve NEVER had a problem that would
Cause me to trim my kit down. You kids need to get a grip and get on with it 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Loki
Active member
Come on cap n Chris I can’t wait to see your reply to this 😂😂😂
Most of the people I know only use the system they were introduced to & haven't experiemented with other gadgets (mostly due to cost). I didn't say they couldn't suggest alternatives, or that they are the best people to be teaching, but they are out there doing it & mostly safely.
Ian Adams
Active member
That's obviously true. But it is also nonsense.
There would be further improvements to road safety if the limit was reduced to 15mph. Further still at 10mph. In fact, road safety would be 100% if vehicles were banned altogether.
No one would have any accidents caving if we banned caving altogether would they.
ChrisJC
Well-known member
Just coming back to this - to be clear, are you saying that your handjammer is not permanently tethered to your D-ring. When you want to prussik, you attached a cows-tail to the handjammer (screwgate?) and set off?
Chris.
Then we'd all die in bed, so better ban them too...
Standard practice elsewhere. I don’t like it, and I certainly don’t like their tape cowstails for caving, for which the manual says should not be used for via ferrata, which is not a ringing endorsement. This is the Petzl manual for a top jammer.
Attachments
cap n chris
Well-known member
Obviously it's a shame. French caving pioneer Fernand Petzl innovated solutions to facilitate cave exploration and in so doing ended up with a global corporation employing genius designers/engineers to be the dominant caving equipment supplier ever since, "accessing the inaccessible"; his company provides illustrations on gear usage, which were included in the current technical 'bible', Alpine Caving Techniques by Marbach and Tourte, which has been in print for decades, and the English translation has been around for 21 years; the illustrations clearly show the elegant and efficient modern (perhaps not so modern now, though) SRT rig which is the European standard. It's a shame that many UK cavers stubbornly entrench themselves on the one hand by using a 50 year old SRT rig layout while on the other hand buying Petzl gear but ignoring the manufacturers' illustrations on its best use. It's a shame that UK cavers don't seem able to progress. It's also a shame that people who point this out find themselves potentially on the receiving end of some kind of knee-jerk reactionary witch hunt. It's a shame that the mindset "we do things the way we do them because that's the way we've always done them" still dominates; it's a shame that progress and adopting better methodologies, more elegant and simplistic personal progression, are denounced; it's a shame that the original SRT rig architecture of the semi-static footloop-to-hand-jammer-to-central-maillon, which was to solve a specific mid rope rescue which otherwise was nigh on impossible but which has been outdated by a safer, simpler, easier rescue method (because of progression), seems to be completely beyond the knowledge of many cavers who persist with the outdated set-up; it's a shame that you can't buy penknives with the prising tool for getting stones out of your horseshoes while commuting to work in your cart; yes, it's a shame.
Petzl sell a tape cowstail which was tested in the video and found wanting for the pretty obvious reasons I always thought made it a dodgy idea. They sell jammers which are inferior to ones they made 20 years ago. Their harnesses have flaws they didn’t have previously. I don’t know why, but it’s probably the scale of the caving market.
I was under the impression most people use a dynamic safety link which is perfectly satisfactory. In reality a knife is the fastest and best tool in most circumstances to pick someone mid rope underground, and the only one I have told my wife she should try if she feels up to it. She would end up in deep shit trying to counterbalance me on a wet pitch for sure. Just how it is.
The thing on a penknife is actually a marlinspike, an extremely useful tool for rope work. I have a stainless knife with a rope blade and a spike I carry all the time when bobbing about and use it most days.
tomferry
Well-known member
Ooo
Correct it is a marlin spike I have 1 on my ww1 Canadian jackknife
I use two snapgates and do so well aware of the 'dangers'. When I teach others, I talk them through the arguments below and let them make their own choice. When teaching my daughter, who was about 11 at the time, I did the same and was quietly pleased when she chose to use snapgates.
In my view the arguments boil down to the following:
For Screwgates (or screwgate on long only): Snapgates can undo all too easily when pushed against other rope, rock, or anchors. This is much more likely when falling or swinging, both of which happen readily on traverse lines and pitch heads. Unless you choose to use three cowstails (or equivalents), you will be reliant on just one Iran and this is often at the points where you are most likely to slip.
For Snapgates: Screwgates are a faff to do up and undo. This means it is either more likely you will slip at those tricky moments while you try desperately to undo them while at full stretch, or you won't do them up anyway. You won't die, but you'll get tired more quickly, and are more likely to get injured swinging around. Some way you can use a screwgate but choose to ignore the gate and have a screwgate anyway. However, it is incredibly easy for the finger to nudge the gate slightly when engaging the krab, particularly when at full stretch. This can quite easily lead to the gate not actually shutting making the krab scarily weak. Now this really is dangerous. Crucial to the overall argument too is that it is possible to be much more confident a snapgate won't undo by careful placement. If people are taught to think about what happens to the krab if they do fall, they can learn to clip them in so that the spine of the krab is the one that will hit nearby rope, rock, or anchor , totally removing the need to worry about whether or not there is a gate. So learning where to place the krab means you can use snapgates as safely as screwgates, but without the issue of the screwgate's gate moving a bit while clipping in leaving the gate open (which is dangerous).
(Note that Cap n Chris is right when he suggests Petzl Vertigo krabs as perhaps the ideal ... here there is no chance of the gate being held open as described above. They are more expensive and heavier, but I do keep thinking I might switch to one of these on my long and, as a result of this thread, might even get around to it, so thanks eveyone!)
In my view the arguments boil down to the following:
For Screwgates (or screwgate on long only): Snapgates can undo all too easily when pushed against other rope, rock, or anchors. This is much more likely when falling or swinging, both of which happen readily on traverse lines and pitch heads. Unless you choose to use three cowstails (or equivalents), you will be reliant on just one Iran and this is often at the points where you are most likely to slip.
For Snapgates: Screwgates are a faff to do up and undo. This means it is either more likely you will slip at those tricky moments while you try desperately to undo them while at full stretch, or you won't do them up anyway. You won't die, but you'll get tired more quickly, and are more likely to get injured swinging around. Some way you can use a screwgate but choose to ignore the gate and have a screwgate anyway. However, it is incredibly easy for the finger to nudge the gate slightly when engaging the krab, particularly when at full stretch. This can quite easily lead to the gate not actually shutting making the krab scarily weak. Now this really is dangerous. Crucial to the overall argument too is that it is possible to be much more confident a snapgate won't undo by careful placement. If people are taught to think about what happens to the krab if they do fall, they can learn to clip them in so that the spine of the krab is the one that will hit nearby rope, rock, or anchor , totally removing the need to worry about whether or not there is a gate. So learning where to place the krab means you can use snapgates as safely as screwgates, but without the issue of the screwgate's gate moving a bit while clipping in leaving the gate open (which is dangerous).
(Note that Cap n Chris is right when he suggests Petzl Vertigo krabs as perhaps the ideal ... here there is no chance of the gate being held open as described above. They are more expensive and heavier, but I do keep thinking I might switch to one of these on my long and, as a result of this thread, might even get around to it, so thanks eveyone!)
cap n chris
Well-known member
Agree. Petzl have manufactured a load of needless/so-so products; an erstwhile colleague once quipped (and I like it!) that "Petzl design solutions to problems no-one's thought of yet". A global manufacturer needs to sell stuff to cover their ground rent. Notwithstanding this and their flaws they are still the daddy.
Loki
Active member
Going back to the first post (I’d totally list what this thread actually started at) I’d be more concerned about what effect those falls onto a jammer would have on the rope. Having done tests on jammers on new and used rope I would never consider a fall onto a toothed cam jammer, on new or used rope. Unless of course you like seeing long stretches of core above you with no sheath.
Well, I've tried SRT with only two cowstails, and I didn't like it. It is, of course, possible that had I persevered with it I might have come round to like it and start using it, but I didn't see why I should persevere with something I did not like. Note – I'm not denouncing anything, merely saying I prefer one system over another.
What I think is a shame is how some people get a bee in their bonnet and bang on and on about it, criticizing others who are perfectly safe, happy and efficient with their style of SRT.
What I think is a shame is how some people get a bee in their bonnet and bang on and on about it, criticizing others who are perfectly safe, happy and efficient with their style of SRT.
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
Well said
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
IIRC he has a video of exactly that. Although I think we all know what happens
tomferry
Well-known member
I must admit, it some times takes a firm person with a bee in his bonnet, to make some people realise what they are doing is unsafe . If I was having a general chat in a pub and some 1 told me before hand snap gates on cow tails are dangerous , I would have laughed and drank my pint …
