fire brigade & cave rescue

[Goydenman]

Talking of FB and cave recues reminds me of a funny incident I was involved in:
'Friends' came to call on me saying 'we need your services to explore a lead mine re-opend by the shaft cover falling in'. I was suspicious cos why would they need me but could not resist going along with it. Going into a field they stopped and pointed a few yards ahead to the shaft. Peering over it was not deep and easily climable but the stench wwas horrendous. Climbed down and found 8 dead sheep at the bottom. Came out before being overcome by fumes. Friends said 'did you hear the noise of the lamb beyond the low arch?'. After aborted attempts to get to it and finding my diving bottles empty we went to the local Fire B to ask if they would loan us a bottle. They could not but said why not have a call out. So we did. Guys rushed in with cars and cried where the fire only to find out it was us wanting to rescue a lamb we did not know where to hide our faces. They went for full embarrasment by going out with tender and landrover. Getting to the hole they rigged a tripod and one guy attempted to go down and have the bottle lowered after only to be stopped by the boss saying 'you do not gointo premises without wearing your kit' so he duly put it on and then could not fit down the hole    :-\ Now the embarrassment was turned. Nigel B (friend) then said 'look you are experts on fire and we are experts on caves' and got them to hand over the kit. The lamb was rescued returned to the farmer and it took weeks ansd weeks to get the smell off Nigels caving gear :thumbsdown:

 

[Pitlamp]

You still haven't explained why you asked the question - it would be interesting to know.

If you have serious concerns your best bet is to discuss it with an officer of the British Cave Rescue Council, which meets annually (next time will be April 2009) and which also has a conference in May 2009 (which you could attend to meet & discuss your apparent concerns with people). Contact details are availaible on the BCRC website. (Alternatively, discuss it with your local cave rescue team, as they are likely to have at least one rep at the BCRC AGM in April).

 

[Bob Mehew]

If you have serious concerns your best bet is to discuss it with an officer of the British Cave Rescue Council, which meets annually (next time will be April 2009)

BCRC attends the UKSAR Operators Group as does a rep from the Chief Fire Officers Association.  The next meeting should be around March.  If this is a real problem rather than just a concern, then this meeting is the place for discussing it; assuming the problem is not too sensitive.  I can give you details of BCRC's rep if you want them. 

There is also a sub group which is a forum where representatives of potential users meet to discuss their concerns.  BCA is represented on this committee.  (Well you don't expect me to turn down a free lunch do you?) It will next meet in June.  Like Pitlamp and others, I am interested to know the background so if the point arises in one of the meetings, I can add a comment if needed.

 

[SamT]

I have a suspicion that "alas dear neil" is trolling.

However, its sparked a good debate, with some good discussion. so any wind up attempt has fallen flat.
Just dont rise to the bait should anyone continue to troll.

 

[Pitlamp]

Don't worry Sam; I don't intend spending more time on this until we hear further from the original poster. Maybe he's got the info he wants now anyway.

 

[menacer]

I have a suspicion that "alas dear neil" is trolling.

However, its sparked a good debate, with some good discussion. so any wind up attempt has fallen flat.
Just dont rise to the bait should anyone continue to troll.

Some people have  24/7 access to the internet.
Not every one does, I happen to know Ali doesnt, he is also a highly valued participant in the Matienzo expeditions and NOT a troll.
Please be patient, as Pitlamp stated  he may have some feedback he required or just hasnt got back to a computer yet.

 

[SamT]

fairy snuff  8)

 

[ronaldjprice]

What's is "trolling"

 

[Pete]

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=trolling

 

[Peter Burgess]

"Trolling is also a freshwater angling technique"  :-\

 

[DARBY]

I have a friend who is involved in rope rescue with the fire brigade and they are now very well informed and very well trained are definately clued up with todays modern rescue techniques. But i think we are all missing a vital point, Our cro and mr teams are also well trained and and extremely knowledgable in there specific areas. AND ARE FREE, so they do not cost the taxpayer when called. So i think the emergency services coordinator on initialising a callout would probably go for the just as experienced and more knowledgable freebie, so i think the cro and mr are safe unless they start charging an hourly rate for there members.

 

[paul]

I have a friend who is involved in rope rescue with the fire brigade and they are now very well informed and very well trained are definately clued up with todays modern rescue techniques. But i think we are all missing a vital point, Our cro and mr teams are also well trained and and extremely knowledgeable in there specific areas. AND ARE FREE, so they do not cost the taxpayer when called. So i think the emergency services coordinator on initialising a callout would probably go for the just as experienced and more knowledgable freebie, so i think the cro and mr are safe unless they start charging an hourly rate for there members.

I'm sure your friend is extremely well trained and knowledgable as are other members of the Fire and Rescue Services - but I don't think they would be best placed for taking care of an incident occuring on top of a mountain, the middle of a moor or down a cave, where they would probably not be able to safely reach the incident site never mind being able to actually get the casualty safely to the surface or a roadside...

The reason, as I have already pointed out, that Cave or Mountain Rescue Teams are involved in any incident is because they were called out by the Police - not because they are "free" to the taxpayer (they are not totally "free" as the money for equipment and training has to come from somewhere: usually by fund-raising by Team Members) - but because the Police have the responsibilty for the safety of the Public and delegate the job to MR/CR Teams as they are there recognised experts in the area.

Also see Incident 281 on the Callouts Page on the DCRO Website.

 

[Les W]

What's is "trolling"

Look up "Whitelackington" in the dictionary  :-\

 

[DARBY]

Paul i am aware on how DCRO collect money as i have stood with a collection box for a few hours myself. What i was trying to say was even if the rru was experienced in all aspects of cave rescue, the forces above would still use the voluntary sector. Classic example i used to be involved with mrt in derby,old lady goes missing from a warden controlled bungalow a 2 day search went ahead before she was found dead not even a mile from her front door, i cannot remember seeing one copper on that search enough said. Maybe i got this wrong but people seem to be worried about the rru taking over on cave rescue.The job the DCRO do and the Dales Fell and Cave rescue teams do and the proffesionalism in which they carry the task out cannot and will never be matched and i feel they should now be funded as proffessionsls for the work they do but thats another debate.

 

[Pitlamp]

Cave rescue has always been volunteer based. It is not "professional" thank goodness. The ethos is all to do with cavers just helping their mates and nothing to do with big budgets. The volunteer status of cave rescue (and other similar outdoor rescue teams) has always been jealously guarded - and I hope it always will be (for a great many reasons). Fund raising efforts are often blended with the social aspects of being a rescue team member and as such shouldn't be regarded so much as a burden as part of a normal and often pleasurable part of one's pastime.

Having said that there has always been good liaison between various of the emergency services and volunteer (yet still extremely competent) teams for mutual benefit. Again, I hope this will continue.

(Perhaps I ought to mention that I have some involvement with the organisation of cave rescue; the above is a personal view but I believe that it's shared by many others similarly involved.)

 

[paul]

Cave rescue has always been volunteer based. It is not "professional" thank goodness. The ethos is all to do with cavers just helping their mates and nothing to do with big budgets. The volunteer status of cave rescue (and other similar outdoor rescue teams) has always been jealously guarded - and I hope it always will be (for a great many reasons). Fund raising efforts are often blended with the social aspects of being a rescue team member and as such shouldn't be regarded so much as a burden as part of a normal and often pleasurable part of one's pastime.

Having said that there has always been good liaison between various of the emergency services and volunteer (yet still extremely competent) teams for mutual benefit. Again, I hope this will continue.

(Perhaps I ought to mention that I have some involvement with the organisation of cave rescue; the above is a personal view but I believe that it's shared by many others similarly involved.)

Totaly agree with you Pitlamp.

It would be nice if the "powers that be" would at least allow rescue teams to avoid having to pay VAT on equipment, etc. though.

 

[JAA]

If anyone is sufficiently interested i can PM them the standard operating procedure for Cave Rescue related incidents in North Yorkshire. I think FB assistance could be made more use of in certain situations, for example we would have no problem with attending an incident to provide lighting or extra transport via Landrover, etc etc.
Jobs i have attended in a proffesional capacity , and i'm aware this might be controversial, i dont feel we have be allowed to assist as fully as may have been possible, due to the attitude of some rescue team members with the approach of,"It's our job and we're not going to let the FB in incase they take over"... I dont mean allowing us underground which would run against our S.O.P. but with providing surface assistance.
That said i've seen some diving jobs where assistance from the FB has been sought and it has all worked well. Depends on the folks on the ground from both sides i guess,
I'll just retrat behind my parapet now...

 

[alasdair neill]

Just to mention my reason for posting this topic was my own concern that the mentioned course of action might not be in caver's best interests; I am open to being shown my concerns can be met. I think these concerns are based on two areas;

firstly that if the Fire Brigade were called to an underground incident rather than A CRO they would think they were capable of dealing with an incident and only calling a CRO once they realised they couldn't. This certainly has happened in the past, for instance at Pridhamsleigh when someone had a heart attack in the cave; according to press reports at the time the fire brigade got half way into the cave but were unable to get any further, and eventually it was left to the rest of the casualty's party to get him out, by which time he was dead. I am sure that current call our procedures through the Police in Devon would prevent this happening, but if an emergency call went direct to the fire service for whatever reason, would they not attempt to deal with it themselves? I am sure I have read in Descent regarding more recent similar (but maybe not fatal) incidents in other parts of the country where the Fire Service initially dealt with an incident, delaying the call out of CRO's who eventually had to sort out the incident.

Secondly, if publically funded rescue services were called to deal with caving incidents there is always the danger of the press getting hold of the story and causing an outcry about why the taxpayer should have to pay for sorting out these "idiots". This happened many years ago when an MP (John Watson?) tried to introduce a bill whereby cavers (& presumably mountaineers & others) should pay the cost to the taxpayer. It was only the efforts of  CRO that convinced him that in fact the cost was small because it was dealt with by voluntary CRO's that led him to withdraw the bill, but I am sure this could happen again. If the FB were to undertake cave/mine rescue in our area they would have to undertake a large amount of training to gain the necessary knowledge of the sites, which surely would not be cost effective for the taxpayer?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I fear that the mindset that believes that trained professionals are always more capable that trained volunteers is what might lead to the sort of scenario you describe at Pridhamsleigh. It is more likely to happen in areas where rescues are thankfully uncommon and there is less of a proven track record for the volunteer organisation.

 

[badger]

like maybe the south east then,
an incident last year when think was a child fell through rocks on a breakwater into a confined space, "maybe an area where cavers might of been able help" and rescue was essential due to rising tide.