fixed rigging spesificly calcite aven, peak caven

[hrock]

i was up there yesterday and was glad to see the ropes have been changed (i have been meaning to do this for some time)

there are 2 or 3 changes to it all though some i like (rethreaded alpine butterflys always worth the effort on fixed rigging)

but the new bolts dont seem to have made things better.

at the top of the little climb just up from then bottom. i don't think this makes it safer as the bolt is strait into calcite with no effective back up. if it were to fail (quite likey as its and expansion anchor in calcite) you would lad on you bum and do lots of spine damage. if it was left as a climb (one it is quite easy) and 2 if you fall climbing the injurers would tend to less severe and the climbers falt not a failure of fixed aids.


then the other bit i dont like is right at the top what was a lover pitch head (rigged to preserve the rope rub free) has been changed so it has a massive rub on the traverse line this rope stand no chance of lasting 10 years. also i dont think it has made it any easyer to get off as the thing that messes people up is the fact that it is free hanging and off to the right(most people have croll on the right and cows tales on the left so an off croll on to travers line to the right will tend to get people in a tangle) and the rock that the new bolt is in is not the best (but it is a good bit better than the one mentioned above)

now i realise that most people have not seen the new rigging so cant comment.     

i just feel that fixed rigging should not pander to the user but instead focus on preserving the rope and having good strong bolt placements. i would rather attend rescues due to some on being strung up due to incompetence than being dead on the floor cos the rope/bolt failed also there is less reciprocations from death by misadventure than what ever it would be if the rope/bolt failed.

as a side note to those thinking of doing any more re-bolting i am lead to believe that the new p bolts are almost ready to go so it might be worth holding off.
 

 

[SamT]

Hmm - who bolted it.  It seems daft to be using expansions these days on anything other than exploratory work.  As you say, new P bolts are sorted,  I'm willing to do the work re-bolting stuff with P's on behalf of DCA, though I'm not sure where Peak Cavern, and its fixed gear policy, fits in with DCA's P bolting program.

 

[adep]

Hi Sam, it was me that re bolted the top of Calcite aven and placed the additional bolt above the small alcove on the lower pitch.

With regard  to the bolt on the lower pitch, good rock is at a premium in this area and this was the best i could find, from what i recall the rock was adequate but not the best for sure, in any event it is more or less an easy climb anyway so should not be subject to the full load of someone prussiking up it but i do understand your comments. The alternative was to leave this as it was which caused a nasty rub point in the rope on the top of the arch where the bolt is, it also slowed down the whole process of going up or down if there is a group of people if the bolt was not there as  you would have to wait till the rope up the main pitch was free, so i considered this to be the lesser of two evils.

Getting off the top pitch in its original state was never easy and required a somewhat acrobatic and aggressive approach to get across, all in the fun of caving you might say but i have seen a number of people get freaked out and hung up here its debateable if the bolts i placed have made it easier i know, but a number of people think it has improved it, as for the rub i don't know if the ropes have been replaced yet but when i placed the bolts i had to reuse the original ropes so it was all rigged somewhat tight, but i understood that the ropes would be replaced in a few weeks but maybe i could have placed them better to lesson the rub but again good rock is at a premium up there but how many apparently badly placed bolts have we all seen in caves??, easy to criticise when you haven't got a hammer to test the surrounding rock.

As for the type of bolt, i know they are  lower off bolts but that is all i was given to use but i intend to replace these with the proper hanger once the new ropes have been installed, personally i see nothing wrong with expansion bolts especially when placing them in unpleasant situations and conditions, ie pi**ing with water!!

All in all, going through the proper channels  if you want to call it that to get anything done seems to be a lengthy process meanwhile we are all getting older, i was bored and itching to do something so thought i would get it done.

Ade Pedley

 

[pwhole]

Roy and Ann installed new ropes on 4th August (I mostly just shivered damply, having foolishly worn Cordura), so it should all be tickety-boo now in terms of technical quality at least.

It was my first time up there, so no idea on past experiences, but I didn't find getting on or off the climbing rope a problem. I'm only average height, but as far as I remember I just clipped my footloop into the bolt, stood up and transferred to the traverse on my super-short cowstail (three-inch loop on my D-ring), then pulled round into the canyon part. Didn't seem particularly difficult in either direction.

EDIT: - I've also used some of the Raumer 10mm twin-cone stainless bolts recently, and they are chunky mofos, though not cheap - around ?2.40 each. But they have been designed specifically for climbing/caving, so seemed a good option, and I've got confidence in them.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I put new rope on Calcite Aven in August after it had been re bolted in places.

I thought the old rigging was difficult to negotiate and the new bolt placements a lot better.

The traverse line round the corner was always going to be hard to judge and I tried to adjust things so that after the knots had tightened with a bit of use the rope would not be pulled against the rock, even with a caver below the Y-hang stretching things downwards, but neither would it be so slack as to be too low.

I reasoned  that a caver actually on the traverse will pull the rope away from the rock anyway.

Afterwards I was in 2 minds about whether to go back and rig the original bolts as well to give people a choice, but decided against because of the confusion that might cause.

My experience of waiting for other people to take the sensible step of talking quietly to each other, deciding what`s best (in this case possibly someone going in to install P bolts then someone else going in to string them together) and then doing it, is that it may not happen inside the lifetime of a fixed rope, so if Henry thinks it hasn`t worked I shall go back and do something about it, probable rig a second line round the corner alongside the first, but slacker so people can clip both. Or anything else that`s sensible.

OR if someone who ought to know these things tells me that the sensible thing is going to be done soon I would be delighted to wait then go in to help (nothing technical of course).

In the case of the bolt at the bottom, I had not realised it was new and that there wasn`t one there before. So until today I had not understood how the wear on the original rope had happened. Am I right in thinking that people abbing down the bottom half of the aven stayed on the rope going down the little climb, where it must have rubbed very badly?

That being so I think a bolt at the top of the climb is a good idea.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

doing future bolting in this way will not only save the good bolt placements for future generations of cavers but would saver the peak fund/tsg a lot of money (?2.50 a bolt) as the dca would then be paying.

Yes.
But how to get it done?

I am just an ordinary club caver, willing to help, but I don`t know anyone important (except my wife, bless her!). I wouldn`t know who to approach for permission and I am not allowed to place bolts anyway.

If somebody else does the talking/paperwork my offer to help stands.

 

[r_walklate@hotmail.com]

Have you looked on the dca website? I don't know if there is a bit about who to contact but I'm sure you could start the process

 

[bograt]

Bob Dearman is acting in this role at the moment, otherwise come along with your club rep to the DCA meeting this Saturday at Monyash Village Hall At 10.00am, and put your case to the people who do it. 

I think TSG rep. is Wayne. (maybe)

 

[SamT]

I'm one of the DCA 'accredited' bolters so you could always contact me on here. 

Generally, I think the pitch has to be on some sort of popular trade route, to be considered for P bolts.  Not just some random pitch at the back end of nowhere. 

I've got the filthy five on my list of things I'd like to rebolt.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I'm one of the DCA 'accredited' bolters so you could always contact me on here. 

You have PM.

 

[pwhole]

Generally, I think the pitch has to be on some sort of popular trade route, to be considered for P bolts.  Not just some random pitch at the back end of nowhere. 

  Victoria Aven!!

 

[adep]

Seeing as Sam has mentioned re bolting the "filthy five pitches", (never done them myself) i would have thought here was a case for using expansion bolts with mallions so that they can be easily replaced seeing as it is so muddy and therefore will wear out the bolts rapidly, or at least equip the P bolts if they are used with maillions that could be replaced both methods would alleviate the need to drill out the bolts.

Just a thought>>>>

 

[paul]

Seeing as Sam has mentioned re bolting the "filthy five pitches", (never done them myself) i would have thought here was a case for using expansion bolts with mallions so that they can be easily replaced seeing as it is so muddy and therefore will wear out the bolts rapidly, or at least equip the P bolts if they are used with maillions that could be replaced both methods would alleviate the need to drill out the bolts.

Just a thought>>>>

A few locations where the P bolts were installed to facilitate pull-throughs (for example the top of the Crabwalk in Giants Hole) were equipped with maillons to prevent wear on the P bolts when the rope was withdrawn. Soon the maillons went missing. They were replaced and done up with Loctite and in turn these were then damaged when individuals tried to remove them...

 

[droid]

Welded steel ring on the P-hanger?

 

[adep]

Grind off the flats on the Mallion before you go down, then tighten up using molegrips and locktite, no one goes caving with molegrips and anyway, the maillions are renderd undesirable after being mauled with a grinder, shame that you have to go to such lengths to preserve what is installed by cavers to further the safety and enjoyment of the sport, then  stolen by fellow  cavers

 

[r_walklate@hotmail.com]

What do you think cavers reasons are for taking such cheap items? I like to leave my srt gear in the crab walk just for ease but maybe I need to think twice as that is an expensive item and I would struggle to get out.!!!

 

[paul]

[gmod]I've split the messages specifically about Bolts rather than rebolting in Peak Cavern and moved them to the Equipment section.[/gmod]