further digressions - Draenen Bats

[Imo]

Indiana, the Canyons, Megadrive North are all bat roosting areas (Megadrive south is large enough for you to stay away from them) As brought up at the June 09 PDCMG meeting, I would like some of these passages shut during the hibernation season.

Food for thought and discussion, some combination could be the way forward. Any other ideas.

Hi John, I'm with you on this. I think that if cavers are having a negative impact on the bats roosting, then there is a really strong case for a closed season in those parts of the cave affected. I would support the PDCMG commissioning some sort of further study to inform a decision. Its the bats home after all and we cavers are all selfish enough as it is.

 

[whitelackington]

Indiana, the Canyons, Megadrive North are all bat roosting areas (Megadrive south is large enough for you to stay away from them) As brought up at the June 09 PDCMG meeting, I would like some of these passages shut during the hibernation season.

Food for thought and discussion, some combination could be the way forward. Any other ideas.

Hi John, I'm with you on this. I think that if cavers are having a negative impact on the bats roosting, then there is a really strong case for a closed season in those parts of the cave affected. I would support the PDCMG commissioning some sort of further study to inform a decision. Its the bats home after all and we cavers are all selfish enough as it is.

What tosh

 

[Pete Talling]

I suggest that the Countryside Comission for Wales (CCW) are brought on board to help us do what is best for the bats. They have expert knowledge, and their independent review could cover the entire cave and all old/new entrances. This would be constructive and interesting. Us cavers could help collect data for them.

I am still a bit worried that people get bullied off posting their views - by other people immediately posting things like 'tosh'. Would the previous postee perhaps explain WHY it is tosh - so that we can all decide what is best for the cave.

Or perhaps you will just say this posting is tosh.

What actually is tosh - it in not in my dictionary - can you eat it? Is it tasty..... mmmmmmm tosh.......

Posted with best intentions  :blink:

Pete

 

[Ian Adams]

I think that bringing the CCW in is one of the worst case scenarios.

I have already made mention of how individuals within the CCW interpret their mandate differently (and to extremes) to the point where two diggers are being prosecuted (because one man sat behind a desk interpreted the law (the countryside & Widlife act 1981) that way) and, yet, another man in the same organisation not only approved a dig in the same bank of limestone caves for the neighboring caving club but that club also got a grant to do it. (The wording of the act provides that if, in their opinion?.)

I said before the likely response to what I have just typed is "I don't know, I can't comment, I wasn't there etc." but that isn't good enough. It happened and IS happening.

Additionally, the CCW in North Wales use local Bat groups and issue licences as such. I don't know if it is the same in the south. One particular group here have a bee in their bonnet about cavers interfering and do what they can to stop us entering caves and mines. (I am not aware of a single caver who has done anything to upset a bat and everyone I have ever caved with has respected bat roosts and the like). I spoke face-to-face (it was diplomatic) with the leader of that club and his main concern was that he didn't want cavers shining their lights at the bats. (Ok, I can get behind that point and have no problem with it). He was with members of his group and it was dusk at the time and they all had torches/lamps and had begun to "investigate" the bat habitat behind where we were talking. I pointed to the shining of lights at the bats and said (I wasn't being sarcastic) - do you mean like that? He answered "yes, but we have a licence so we are allowed to".

In my small and uneducated mind, it seemed to me that it either was "ok" to shine a light at a bat or it wasn't. I am not sure the bat was aware of whether the person shining the light had a licence or not.

In any event, bats are protected by law and we have an obligation to comply with that legislation whether we like it or not. I, for one, respect the law and comply (and willingly so in this case).

Ian

 

[Les W]

It is very dangerous to try and use bats as a weapon, this can only backfire. Lots of bat groups have their own agendas and try to exclude everybody from a habitat except themselves.

Do not use bats to control or justify anything concerning caves, the ultimate position will be that no caves will be accessible for at least half the year, longer if they are also breeding in the caves.
If you don't believe me then look at the access limitations in some of the Devon sites, particularly Reads Cavern.

 

[Imo]

It is very dangerous to try and use bats as a weapon, this can only backfire. Lots of bat groups have their own agendas and try to exclude everybody from a habitat except themselves.

Do not use bats to control or justify anything concerning caves, the ultimate position will be that no caves will be accessible for at least half the year, longer if they are also breeding in the caves.
If you don't believe me then look at the access limitations in some of the Devon sites, particularly Reads Cavern.

I agree Les, that the issue of disturbing bats shouldn't be used to gather weight politically for something which has nothing to do with bats. The thought had crossed my mind that might be happening here, when the sudden concern for bats appeared but I don't know if its 'tosh' because I don't know enough about bats.

However, all I'm saying is that if there is a genuine cause to think that cavers in Indiana highway are having a negative impact on the bats that live there, then we should review it sensibly. I've seen them roosting I've walked past them, counting them, so we can send the information to the biological recorder.

That biological recorder reports to the PDCMG and should be able to advise it on these matters? If that means a closed season, then so be it.

I'd be happy to cave elsewhere - or use an alternative route - even if that was longer.

 

[Jopo]

I suggest that the Countryside Comission for Wales (CCW) are brought on board to help us do what is best for the bats. They have expert knowledge, and their independent review could cover the entire cave and all old/new entrances. This would be constructive and interesting. Us cavers could help collect data for them.

It is very dangerous to try and use bats as a weapon, this can only backfire. Lots of bat groups have their own agendas and try to exclude everybody from a habitat except themselves.

Do not use bats to control or justify anything concerning caves, the ultimate position will be that no caves will be accessible for at least half the year, longer if they are also breeding in the caves.
If you don't believe me then look at the access limitations in some of the Devon sites, particularly Reads Cavern.

Is it is not called the law of unforseen consequences - or shooting yourself in the foot.

Jopo

 

[Brains]

Tosh - a greasey ball of goo found in London sewers by Toshers, prised because they often contained coins or other precious objects lost down the drains.
How the times change...

 

[Huge]

John, do you have any proof of harm caused to bats in Draenen?

You'll be suggesting that Aggy be closed next! A very dangerous strategy.

 

[whitelackington]

I suggest that the Countryside Commission for Wales (CCW) are brought on board to help us do what is best for the bats. They have expert knowledge, and their independent review could cover the entire cave and all old/new entrances. This would be constructive and interesting. Us cavers could help collect data for them.

I am still a bit worried that people get bullied off posting their views - by other people immediately posting things like 'tosh'. Would the previous postee perhaps explain WHY it is tosh - so that we can all decide what is best for the cave.

Or perhaps you will just say this posting is tosh.

What actually is tosh - it in not in my dictionary - can you eat it? Is it tasty..... mmmmmmm tosh.......

Posted with best intentions  :blink:

Pete

You will be asking for trouble inviting any official bodies or bat people into anything
but I suspect that there is such anger among some control freaks of a second entrance that some people will go to almost any length's to become "spoilers"
be careful for what you wish, it may come true.
Leave officialdom out of it if you have any marbles at all.
A.C.G. opened up a big cave on Mendip one of the diggers was also a bat person, there were a handful of bats in the cave, bat people were alerted, from then on the cave is closed
every year from October to May.
Because of these imposed restrictions virtually no digging or exploration now happens,
oh yes, the bat keen digger now hasn't caver for a decade.

 

[cap n chris]

Anyone care to explain why bats are happy to shelter in Goatchurch Cavern, week in, week out, year in, year out in the same old same old places right next to subterranean footpaths which in all probability have at least 100 people a week moving alongside them?

Clearly the bats are NOT being disturbed by this and I for one would be happy to put a reasonable wager on it being the same bat(s) using the identical roosts each year.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I suggest that the Countryside Commission for Wales (CCW) are brought on board to help us do what is best for the bats. They have expert knowledge, and their independent review could cover the entire cave and all old/new entrances. This would be constructive and interesting. Us cavers could help collect data for them.

I am still a bit worried that people get bullied off posting their views - by other people immediately posting things like 'tosh'. Would the previous postee perhaps explain WHY it is tosh - so that we can all decide what is best for the cave.

Or perhaps you will just say this posting is tosh.

What actually is tosh - it in not in my dictionary - can you eat it? Is it tasty..... mmmmmmm tosh.......

Posted with best intentions  :blink:

Pete

You will be asking for trouble inviting any official bodies or bat people into anything
but I suspect that there is such anger among some control freaks of a second entrance that some people will go to almost any length's to become "spoilers"
be careful for what you wish, it may come true.
Leave officialdom out of it if you have any marbles at all.
A.C.G. opened up a big cave on Mendip one of the diggers was also a bat person, there were a handful of bats in the cave, bat people were alerted, from then on the cave is closed
every year from October to May.
Because of these imposed restrictions virtually no digging or exploration now happens,
oh yes, the bat keen digger now hasn't caver for a decade.

Can't believe I'm saying this but...

Thanks for that Mick, you are spot-on right!

 

[rhychydwr1]

Anyone care to explain why bats are happy to shelter in Goatchurch Cavern, week in, week out, year in, year out in the same old same old places right next to subterranean footpaths which in all probability have at least 100 people a week moving alongside them?

Clearly the bats are NOT being disturbed by this and I for one would be happy to put a reasonable wager on it being the same bat(s) using the identical roosts each year.

In my misspent youth, before bat licences, I would visit an artificial tunnel in Biddle Combe about once a week.  I would ring, weigh and record the same bats time and time again.  Despite what the "experts" now say it did not kill the bats.  It is just nonsense to say bats are disturbed by cavers shining lights on them.  The only thing that upsets bats is smoke from fires.

 

[SamT]

What is it with bats anyhow, Get them with their backing of the law.

Maybe I'm wrong, but starlings dont have the same heavyweight legislations applied to them and  yet their numbers have plummeted since many of their roosts have been bulldozed - I just dont get it with bats 

(sorry jim)

 

[cap n chris]

A species of Starling hasn't become extinct in Britain, to my knowledge, prompting protective legislation.

 

[Hughie]

A species of Starling hasn't become extinct in Britain, to my knowledge, prompting protective legislation.

They're most certainly protected. Roost site nearby here during the winter regularly takes 4 million. It was rising but numbers have dropped due to over-population (and the amount of "Twitchers" and their flashing cameras, no doubt.

We have some very fat birds of prey!

 

[Pete Talling]

Jackalpub (tee hee I will leave that particular typo in - its 7am here in the states and I have had 3 hours sleep), Imo, Andy S, whitlackington, and other folks

many thanks I really enjoyed reading all those posts - ta!

If we did seasonally shut key passages off like Indiana (note that some side passages in various parts of the cave are taped off and people are asked to avoid them - as in Aggy) then I think we would need some type of advice from bat experts. Rhiann Hicks would be the first person to talk to as biological recorder. She is a fellow caver and I wonder what she thinks.

But I absolutely share those concerns of Jackalpup et al. about getting large non-cavers bodies involved, and where that will lead for access.

Off for a big pile of US pancakes for breakfast (no tosh). mmmmm P

 

[John S]

John, do you have any proof of harm caused to bats in Draenen?

You'll be suggesting that Aggy be closed next! A very dangerous strategy.

Yes and then No.

Not the place to discuss the matter and maybe if the PDCMG had listened and taken action, then I would not need to bring the subject up in passing. For the answer, ask the Bio Recorder for the reports from about 2001&2 about bats in Dreanen, and its recomendations.
Studies have been done so work on those first.

Please remember the MCCMAC is chaired by the CCW and we have a very good working relationship with them. Aggy shows how it can work to everyones advantage 

 

[alasdair neill]

If it is needed, have contact with several professional bat workers who do not have any anti-caver prejudice.

 

[John S]

If it is needed, have contact with several professional bat workers who do not have any anti-caver prejudice.

Thank you for the offer, Alasdair.
The reports were carried out by a professional bat worker who is also pro caver, so we should have it covered. They set out a nice base line to work from.