Gates

[darkplaces]

Well thats why they need to be inside the entrance and very cheap, a strip of laminated paper. OR (dare I say it) on a non interesting area maybe (gosh) a template made and sprayed on the inside. (runs and hides) I dont like graffiti :evil: but I guess the key holder gets to define what is and isnt graffiti. Also this doesnt need to be done over night. Maybe starting at locations with issues, commonly stumbled on by people. To get the word out 'Hey you dont need to break in, call us and we can arrange a safe trip'. Might be cheaper then replacing damaged locks & gates in the long run.

 

[diggerdog adam]

This is a good point naming caves etc and might be a good topic of its own

Im sure that in some areas clubs/ groups have a "adopt A cave scheme" could this not be made part of the dutys spreading the load evenly across the country

If the scheme still exstists maybe clubs should be Centrally issused with a list of caves in there area which they might like to undertake

Probally the fairest way should be for eg 1 cave per 5 members of the club or something simular

Any thoughts?

 

[cap n chris]

I've been thinking about some sort of standardised or "generic" sign and its wording. Think about the "problem" for a while and you quickly realise that each site is different and has different access arrangments, thereby requiring individual signs to be made up. Laminated signs do not last long underground since moisture quickly finds its way into them and they delaminate. The adopt a cave scheme still exists but I don't believe it can be used as a mailing list telling the adoptees what they should or should not be doing - they can have as much or little involvement in a site as they wish.. and some sites have been adopted only for the club to become defunct; the list is not actively maintained (to my knowledge). Back to the wording then.

For CSCC standard padlock sites the problem is this: "for access to this site (name of cave/mine) please contact any of the following major Mendip Caving Clubs who are key holders (long list of phone numbers/email addresses - presumably many of which would soon be out of date)". This would be quite a large sign as you can imagine!

For non CSCC sites it would still be necessary to have a name plate (which are already in situ, courtesy of the Mendip Rescue Organisation). A standard sign could simply be "Purchase a copy of Mendip Underground (at Bat Products, Wells) and find out more about this site, and access conditions, the name of which is on the sign below".

I fully understand Darkplaces' point about interested people in the past, not knowing how to go about gaining access, simply making their own way in by using force and perhaps IF such signs had been in place this would not have occurred. However there is a point of view which says leave things as they are since:

(a) signs are a form of litter
(b) signs generate more traffic into sites
(c) signs get vandalised (OK, so do entrances)
(d) they cost money and time installing and maintaining (Graham's point above)
(e) clubs may get approached by "persons unknown" wishing to borrow keys and their duty of care, directly or indirectly, extends to those people with consequent (possibly unfounded) concerns about liability. Rightfully, clubs aren't there to issue out their keys to non-members anyway - it's just one of the benefits of being a CSCC affiliated organisation!
(f) I am wary about proliferating signs - OK, so I've put a fair few up in the last couple of years already (Swildon's loose bolt, Fairy Quarry, Waterwheel Swallet, Aveline's Hole etc.) but they ARE unsightly and many cavers resent being told the "blinkin' obvious" (i.e. bat stuff, safe rigging etc.).
(g) The MRO signs were photo etched onto aluminium because one of the wardens (many many moons ago) worked somewhere which specialised in this technique; this is no longer a possibility for the creation of signs and so whatever is done could cost an absolute fortune (the £18 I was quoted was for stick-on lettering onto a small bit of flimsy metal - but at least it was VERY flame resistant); CSCC would not be keen, I am pretty sure, on spending £324 for the 18 sites presently fitted with the CSCC padlock and I doubt if adopt-a-cave clubs would want to cough up that sort of money for sites under their control (e.g. some clubs have multiple sites) - especially when you know how much fuss is made about a subscription rise of, say, £2 per year!

HOWEVER, there is still something to be said about pursuing this topic and I am not writing it off - in essence, the precedent has already been set about placing signs since the MRO signs are a necessity so that visiting cavers do not go down the wrong cave (i.e. mistaking rhino rift for long hole and then falling down a deep pitch!, or going down Bos Swallet instead of Rod's Pot, or visiting Sidcot Swallet instead of Pierre's Pot etc..).

I think the main concern of Darkplaces' is over sites which are locked and no-one knows where to turn if they wish to find out what's inside; presumably grilled sites rather than padlocked manholes (exposed signs would be difficult to protect). On and around Mendip these are quite few: would anyone out there care to make a suggestion list of sites suitable for these explanatory signs?.....

 

[cap n chris]

OR (dare I say it) on a non interesting area maybe (gosh) a template made and sprayed on the inside.

I wouldn't mention that in a pub like the Hunter's Lodge if I were you!... (perhaps you're a VERY BRAVE person).

 

[darkplaces]

hmm yeah lots of good points. AS to what to put on a sign you might just need 'www.cscc.org.uk' because thats going to have all the information and an extra page could be added eg 'Have you just found a hole and want more information?' then layout how things work, what book to get, link to locations, what to do next, joining a club, trying it out! Anything not CSCC controled could be adopted, like box or browns. You might just need to point people in the right direction rather then spoon feed them. Something that small could be stamped on the gate or etched with a battery operated thingy as and when a visit occurs. Is that sounding more scaleable?

 

[cap n chris]

Sounds pretty good to me; I'll float it past the CSCC webmasterthingy and see if I can stamp emboss the lettering onto a dog collar tag kind of dohickey or get it etched as you mention. Any particular site in mind, Mr. Darkplaces?

 

[darkplaces]

site - what do you mean, location or website for non CSCC controlled locations?

I would like to adopt Box, box is soo cute

 

[Jagman]

Gates create vandalism, albeit usually the gates themselves being vandalised.
Gates are not a particularly efficient method of protecting anything!
Priority should be given to making access easier to those who want it not restricting everybody.
Access to a whole valleys worth of mines here has effectively been lost this week due to some numpty cutting through a grate ontop a 80foot shaft, all they had to do was look around a bit and they would see an alternate unlocked access, they did'nt even bother to recover the shaft behind them (in an area local kids frequent) the landowner has announced his intent to prosecute every caver/ mine explorer seen on his land from now on. On investigation it appears mineral collectors are the culprits,
whilst I've no particular objection to people gaining access by their own means, leaving a shaft un-covered id gross stupidity and in-excusable.
A blind eye will no longer be turned to people like ourselves "nosing" about.
This has occured in an area where no access restrictions have been applied before.
No amount of gates will prevent this kind of stupidity.
Those responsible can sleep easily however, the blame has been lodged firmly upon my shoulders........

 

[cap n chris]

Gates are not a particularly efficient method of protecting anything!

When it comes to protecting caves there are numerous examples which prove to the contrary. In terms of conservation, for example, St. Cuthbert's Swallet on Mendip recently "celebrated" the 50th anniversary since its discovery ... the fabulously fine formations there remain in pristine condition - admittedly there is also a leader system but you get my gist; there are many other pretty caves on Mendip which are protected by lock and key and which retain their unspoiled, undamaged state - just compare these to the sad vandalised state of "open" sites and you'll immediately conclude that gates actually do their job very well indeed.

Having said this, making access easy (or easier - is there a difference? Discuss) is important but perhaps it's more of a case of trying to avoid making access difficult - an SAE to get a permit or an online application (such as the S. Wales caves like OFD) and some kind of warranty that you are a bona fide caver usually suffices to most sites (there are only a handful of caves like Gough's in Cheddar, Peak in Derbyshire and Dan-yr-Ogof in South Wales which, since they are commercially operated showcaves, require visiting cavers to provide proof of insurance cover for their activities to keep the management happy. Mostly insurance is asked for since it proves you are a member of a caving club).

It is sad to hear about your example of unauthorised and potentially reckless visitors spoiling access to a series of sites in a valley - apparently caused by someone cutting through a gate; these repercussions don't seem to concern people engaged in their clandestine activities but they can have pretty devastating consequences for other bona fide users and this appears to be a case in point. I hope you can successfully renegotiate access sometime in the future.

 

[Jagman]

The main thing here Cap'n Chris is that it was'nt a gate that was cut up it was
a grating covering a shaft, the gate is a 150yards away and has never been locked. Access was never a problem!
Also there has never been any agreement over access or lack of it, simply no-one has been bothered if you wander about or not in the past.
Personally I have always found that these people are content to let me go about my business :? on the basis that a low profile is kept and no harm is done, all that has now changed and the people concerned are actively looking for cavers tresspassing on their patch.
This particular area is largely unexplored, it is also extremely unlikely that the status quo will ever return to what it was
I have always found that natural obstacles such as crawls and water impede those likely to cause damage far more effectively than gates. the problem we have up here is destruction caused by mineral collectors, thay seem prepared to go to any lengths to get their rocks, the damage I've seen lately is considerable and deliberate.
Say what you will about my attitude toward access restrictions, but neither myself or anyone I go underground with would deliberately damage anything in a mine. It would defeat the whole purpose of the visit

 

[Mole]

and some kind of warranty that you are a bona fide caver usually suffices to most sites. Mostly insurance is asked for since it proves you are a member of a caving club).

This is all very well,but where does it leave the likes of me ?

I'm not a member of any club,but have been exploring mines,(caves don't do it for me), since the early 60's.

I was loosely "associated" with a couple of clubs years ago,but I'm rather selective about who I go u/g with,as I've come across too many idiots.

So,if I apply for access to a locked mine and say I don't belong to a club,what happens ?,do I get access ?,or is it refused as I can't prove my bona fides ?

I'm sorry,but membership of a "club" only proves you are a "club member",and says nothing whatsover about an individuals abilities or experience u/g.I'm sure that I'm not the only person who's come across "explorers/cavers" you wouldn't want to be in a supermarket with,let alone u/g.

It seems funny that lack of club membership has not been a hindrance to me being granted access to working mines.

 

[kay]

Anyone know what the insurance position with BCA is at the moment? As far as I know, we are insured, but despite being a member of a club, I don't yet have a card for this year, so I can't prove to anyone that I am insured!

Have other people got their cards yet - should I be chasing this up?

 

[George North]

I don't think the BCA have sent them out yet (I certainly havn't got mine). They're on their way though apparently......

</Hijack>

 

[cap n chris]

and some kind of warranty that you are a bona fide caver usually suffices to most sites. Mostly insurance is asked for since it proves you are a member of a caving club).



This is all very well,but where does it leave the likes of me ?

I'm not a member of any club,but have been exploring mines,(caves don't do it for me), since the early 60's.

I was loosely "associated" with a couple of clubs years ago,but I'm rather selective about who I go u/g with,as I've come across too many idiots.

So,if I apply for access to a locked mine and say I don't belong to a club,what happens ?,do I get access ?,or is it refused as I can't prove my bona fides ?

I'm sorry,but membership of a "club" only proves you are a "club member",and says nothing whatsover about an individuals abilities or experience u/g.I'm sure that I'm not the only person who's come across "explorers/cavers" you wouldn't want to be in a supermarket with,let alone u/g.

It seems funny that lack of club membership has not been a hindrance to me being granted access to working mines.

By the sounds of things you're not finding your activities curtailed through lack of being a club member or having insurance so all is well for you.

There will always be a few idiots in any group/club but that doesn't mean we need to tar the entire organisation with the same brush though.

Likewise being a member of club doesn't automatically mean, by definition, that you know what you're doing!

Your question about what happens if you apply for access to a site as a non-club-member and non-insured person begs the obvious response... try it and see what happens! (You go on to say that your lack of club membership has not been a hindrance in the past so perhaps there's no problem at all as far as mines are concerned).

The sites I mentioned where insurance is a prerequisite for access are COMMERCIALLY run caves with higher management who get worried about liability - my point was that if you happen to be a member of a club (and therefore insured, since club membership now requires you to be insured) it helps to open doors (gates/grilles) - a direct benefit of club membership.

No-one has to be a member of a club but this is an example of one reason why many people do become members.

 

[cap n chris]

the landowner has announced his intent to prosecute every caver/ mine explorer seen on his land from now on

Where is this site?

 

[Jagman]

I'd rather keep the exact location and names of individuals to myself for a week or two Cap'n Chris, in the perhaps useless hope that I can get the situation to simmer down a little, most of the sites on that patch are little known and not yet hugely frequented.
I will keep you updated of the situation, the fact that prior to this the person concerned and I got on well enough so I might be able to smooth things out a bit over a period of time :roll:

 

[cap n chris]

Good thinking; time heals. "Best not to prod a sore spot when one is discovered".

 

[darkplaces]

Insurence is always almost demanded to access anywhere underground. FOD require insurence and a permit and to be part of a club (loosly atleast). Mole's point is a major one, the people that know him, know he has vast experiance with things underground and can take amazing photographs but gets repelled by people who demand insurence and club status, everyone looses out including the group doing the refusing. I contacted some club to ask for a visit to some south east limestone quarrys but was told anyone who wanted to go in had to be insured. Its the usual argument and not really on topic.

Returning to topic....
I think, atleast some gates are vandalized because people are fustrated because they simple have no clue who to ask to 'take a look'.

Some people regardless will vandalize, it has to be accepted (I dont mean its alright) but like falling rocks people have to accept its going to happen now and then. The problem is people who controll access simply start restricting access more because of a random rare occurance, which to be honest, it is in the big wide world.

I would love to get to a point were people dont have to sneek around and hide activities simply because its the only way to explore without insurence. Only then, when people were open could they be seporated from the idiot vandals.