Gentlewoman's Shaft
- Thread starter Madness
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pwhole
Well-known member
Indeed - looking up King Shaft was rather exhilarating, I must say. The one beam that seems to be holding everything up looked ever so rotten. That said though, I do remember when we eventually got to the far NW end of King Mine, that there was a strong draught coming in from near a marked surface shaft on the survey, but we ran out of time to check it out. I have no idea whether it's open at surface, but it's outside the quarry perimeter?
I think we have been before - wondering what else there is in the Matlock area. My first underground trip in that area and what was my very first underground trip anywhere took place in the mid 1960s. Around that time I heard about the out of work Millclose miners entering Jugholes and emerging on the Via Gellia - this story was (a) true (b) a way of describing the extent of the search for a new vein and not to be taken literally or (c) a "wind-up" aimed at young mine explorers. I also heard, later but from a slightly older generation of cavers that "everything connected" in the Matlock Bath area - the connections bograt searched for. I have heard of long levels on the East side of the river and of a Jugholes/Oxclose connection one historical (1950s) and the other more recent and both reliable - plus news of another Jugholes entrance. I squirmed through a connection on my first trip which apparently remained unknown for another three decades and I know was not shown on a published survey (which reminds me of another, officially not in existence connection, in a much better known system!). We know a lot more now from researching mining records and the unfeasible years ago probably did exist. Much must have been lost through backfilling, collapses and quarrying and we can be certain that there is much we have not seen.
History Trog
Member
I hesitated to contribute to this thread for, as Tripod notes, comment has been made before about the (lack of) mine exploration nowadays in the Matlock area, and no doubt I just bore everyone with rehashing the old stuff. But I will again.
In the early 1970s, with Andy Hayes and John Swain, we surveyed and researched many of the big systems hereabouts and published them. I have carried on doing research. This year, I went over some ground at Matlock Bath after two recent snowfalls, hoping to see spots of melting snow that would mark the higher outlet from two shafts that are open, both with airflows down in winter. They led into a substantial system, last explored about 150 years ago. On both occasions, the snow had melted by the time I got there. When I was lying over a mound of loose stones, holding my face to the ground feeling for an airflow issuing, I had to smile ruefully at the thought how I am still doing the same old stuff as back in the 1960s. Am about as big a dinosaur as that one unearthed recently in Argentina.
I missed some important stuff back in the old days, particularly several useful systems ? but so did everyone else, even the spar miners. One is so fixated looking at the obvious that one does not see in the other direction, like a conjuror?s trick.
Historical knowledge has advanced remarkably. In the old days, one of the ?wild legends? was the sough linking Ball Eye to Matlock Bath but I recently found historical proof of its existence, and know its course along various veins. I was so intrigued by the possibility of getting into it that I dug out my carbide lamp and an ancient tin of manky carbide out of the attic, not having done anything underground for 30 years since our little group decreased in size to a solo job. I left it but still wonder if it would be worth going for it.
I recently posted on the Aditnow website about the coffin level that almost certainly existed at the north end of the Lovers Walks. An old miner told spar workers in the 1950s how he got into it, probably c1920:
Take the first path up the rocky slope past the bandstand. So far up turn off into the wood about 10 yds. and look for a depression (look for 2 or 3 elm trees from one root), in the depression you will find two loosely gobbed up gates. Take the right hand one and you will come to a 4 ft. drop, proceed on for about 200 yds. and you will notice on the right hand side an old type miner?s pick. Take a ladder with you and you can get right through to ?Bullistree Mine?, Cromford. On the way through notice the roof a classical example of the ?Old Mans? architecture arches, like horse?s ribs [i.e. sweeping pick marks]. Also notice the stalactites, lovely curtains of them.
This entrance would drop into the top end of the sough on Jackdaw Vein. Theoretically, it must be on the middle of the three Moletrap (or Station Quarry) Veins and according to an old record that I found only two months ago, the opening into it was in a shell bed in the limestone. I then went to look at it again but the hillside was very steep and muddy, straight down into the flooded river, and my boots soles were worn down so I had to leave it for the time being.
In the early 1970s, with Andy Hayes and John Swain, we surveyed and researched many of the big systems hereabouts and published them. I have carried on doing research. This year, I went over some ground at Matlock Bath after two recent snowfalls, hoping to see spots of melting snow that would mark the higher outlet from two shafts that are open, both with airflows down in winter. They led into a substantial system, last explored about 150 years ago. On both occasions, the snow had melted by the time I got there. When I was lying over a mound of loose stones, holding my face to the ground feeling for an airflow issuing, I had to smile ruefully at the thought how I am still doing the same old stuff as back in the 1960s. Am about as big a dinosaur as that one unearthed recently in Argentina.
I missed some important stuff back in the old days, particularly several useful systems ? but so did everyone else, even the spar miners. One is so fixated looking at the obvious that one does not see in the other direction, like a conjuror?s trick.
Historical knowledge has advanced remarkably. In the old days, one of the ?wild legends? was the sough linking Ball Eye to Matlock Bath but I recently found historical proof of its existence, and know its course along various veins. I was so intrigued by the possibility of getting into it that I dug out my carbide lamp and an ancient tin of manky carbide out of the attic, not having done anything underground for 30 years since our little group decreased in size to a solo job. I left it but still wonder if it would be worth going for it.
I recently posted on the Aditnow website about the coffin level that almost certainly existed at the north end of the Lovers Walks. An old miner told spar workers in the 1950s how he got into it, probably c1920:
Take the first path up the rocky slope past the bandstand. So far up turn off into the wood about 10 yds. and look for a depression (look for 2 or 3 elm trees from one root), in the depression you will find two loosely gobbed up gates. Take the right hand one and you will come to a 4 ft. drop, proceed on for about 200 yds. and you will notice on the right hand side an old type miner?s pick. Take a ladder with you and you can get right through to ?Bullistree Mine?, Cromford. On the way through notice the roof a classical example of the ?Old Mans? architecture arches, like horse?s ribs [i.e. sweeping pick marks]. Also notice the stalactites, lovely curtains of them.
This entrance would drop into the top end of the sough on Jackdaw Vein. Theoretically, it must be on the middle of the three Moletrap (or Station Quarry) Veins and according to an old record that I found only two months ago, the opening into it was in a shell bed in the limestone. I then went to look at it again but the hillside was very steep and muddy, straight down into the flooded river, and my boots soles were worn down so I had to leave it for the time being.
royfellows
Well-known member
Its worth noting that people are still making discoveries, but keeping it to themselves for obvious reasons.
Mixed affect. Only by sharing knowledge do we all move forward, but share with the wrong people and places get trashed, hostile landowners seal places up etc
Just passing comment
Mixed affect. Only by sharing knowledge do we all move forward, but share with the wrong people and places get trashed, hostile landowners seal places up etc
Just passing comment
pwhole
Well-known member
Fascinating stuff Roger, thanks for all this. Although it's trickier for me to get to Matlock easily, especially now another bus route from Sheffield has been axed, it's an area that fascinates me. But the amount of research required is beyond me at present due to the amount of projects already ongoing. I'm particularly taken with the caverns in Cumberland at present, not least as the diameter of the tube that runs through it is colossal - bigger than Peak Cavern's. Not knowing enough about the area I have no idea where that ended up at the Wapping end, but it just seems to fizzle out. This may all be well-known of course, but I don't hear much about lost cave systems in Matlock.
A few years ago I went down a mine in Winster, and was astonished to see metre-diameter phreatic tubes, full of sediment, and completely undug - it was a cave explorer's dream come true. Only about 20m below surface too. When I asked the chap who took me why this stuff had never been tackled he said that no-one really knew about them, as cavers never came to Winster. Which may or may not be true, but it just shows what's down there. Another, deeper mine nearby had similar developments around -80m, showing considerable depth to the system. Granted, access is probably more difficult, but it does illustrate that outside the 'hot' zones, there's still plenty in there to find.
Recently found a lump of water-worm galena, along with quartzite pebbles embedded in Brassington sand deposits in a shacky vein in a little mine near Kniveton - that was a pleasant surprise, and again, an indicator of some sort of cave development in the area.
A few years ago I went down a mine in Winster, and was astonished to see metre-diameter phreatic tubes, full of sediment, and completely undug - it was a cave explorer's dream come true. Only about 20m below surface too. When I asked the chap who took me why this stuff had never been tackled he said that no-one really knew about them, as cavers never came to Winster. Which may or may not be true, but it just shows what's down there. Another, deeper mine nearby had similar developments around -80m, showing considerable depth to the system. Granted, access is probably more difficult, but it does illustrate that outside the 'hot' zones, there's still plenty in there to find.
Recently found a lump of water-worm galena, along with quartzite pebbles embedded in Brassington sand deposits in a shacky vein in a little mine near Kniveton - that was a pleasant surprise, and again, an indicator of some sort of cave development in the area.
Madness
New member
History Trogg.
I'm glad you posted, I find your posts on Aditnow fascinating and I'm looking forward to your book being published.
I'm of the opinion also that the Matlock area is overlooked when it comes to exploration. All the diggers seem to think that the Northern White Peak is 'where it's at'. Though I am not in a position to commit to a dig, I'm very interested in the 'possibilities' that exist around the Matlock area. I do think that more co-ordination/focus between cavers/diggers/historians is the way forward when it comes to discovery/exploration.
I'm glad you posted, I find your posts on Aditnow fascinating and I'm looking forward to your book being published.
I'm of the opinion also that the Matlock area is overlooked when it comes to exploration. All the diggers seem to think that the Northern White Peak is 'where it's at'. Though I am not in a position to commit to a dig, I'm very interested in the 'possibilities' that exist around the Matlock area. I do think that more co-ordination/focus between cavers/diggers/historians is the way forward when it comes to discovery/exploration.
royfellows
Well-known member
I might have a ride over on Sunday and will report back
History Trog
Member
Taking up pwhole's point about unexplored caves, there is also Bacon Pipe in the Heights of Abraham. I dealt with this in the book I had published in 1976. There was a run of natural caverns about 200 feet in length or more discovered in c1670. They range off Bacon Rake (Great Rake) downhill to Nestus New Breck (Sparholes Vein) and perhaps beyond, dipping steeply down the strata. It is a very similar set up to the Gentlewoman's Pipe ranging downhill. So far as I know, no-one tried to get access tho' it should be possible to dig thro from the Lower Nestus system. Mr. Pugh, the owner of the Heights of Abraham, has generally been sympathetic to genuine mine exploration.
Part of the problem in the Matlock area is getting access permission from landowners. I do not keep stuff to myself unnecessarily and have published so much in the past. Another problem is that some shafts need to be capped and given access lids.
If we have another snow fall, I shall have to try again, a bit more promptly but it is difficult. Harp Edge could also do with checking when snow cover exists but the terrain there would be impossible in such conditions.
Part of the problem in the Matlock area is getting access permission from landowners. I do not keep stuff to myself unnecessarily and have published so much in the past. Another problem is that some shafts need to be capped and given access lids.
If we have another snow fall, I shall have to try again, a bit more promptly but it is difficult. Harp Edge could also do with checking when snow cover exists but the terrain there would be impossible in such conditions.
History Trog
Member
Going back to the interconnecting possibilities of systems, recently when doing maintenance work at the show caves, Terry Worthington got from Masson Cavern into Rutland Cavern. From there it is possible to get into the Lower Nestus System, in which workings extend westwards on Sparholes Vein. When John Barnatt and co. did their survey of this, they noted that westwardly this ends at a strongly draughting collapse ? this is only about 200 feet short of the intersection of the Bacon Pipe Caverns and beyond that Sparholes Vein continues west and may link through to Coalpit Rake/Devonshire Cavern.
Thus, it would once have been possible to go from Artist?s Corner up Ringing Rake and Gentlewoman?s and end up either in or near Devonshire Cavern.
Thus, it would once have been possible to go from Artist?s Corner up Ringing Rake and Gentlewoman?s and end up either in or near Devonshire Cavern.
A river to river trip even, if the stories of emerging in hotel cellars were true and access was from Devonshire mine and not the shorter route from the river bank. We now know that the sough there was planned, could have been started and might even have been completed - if it had then those 50s/60s mine explorers might have made the legendary trip, emerging between the beer barrels. Sadly the sough is now lost, as are others through road widening, river bank work and collapses.
Devonshire mine fascinates many of us it seems and there must be so much that that we have not seen. Even in my 1960s Caves of Derbyshire it is stated that much of the lower series is blocked by roof falls.
Devonshire mine fascinates many of us it seems and there must be so much that that we have not seen. Even in my 1960s Caves of Derbyshire it is stated that much of the lower series is blocked by roof falls.
There must be a lot much lower than the "lower end" of Devonshire. The whole system is not deep and must have been quite different when it was worked. I first visited in the mid 1960s, have not been back for a long time now and still look back with some regrets and frustration.
Back in the 1960s two other openings were visible in the river bank a short distance downstream of "Long Tor Grot-hole". One was a sough I have read about I think (and the other?). What a pity I did not go for a paddle in the river and a crawl up those. I would have needed more batteries though as I only had a bike lamp on my first trip, "stinky" on my second though.
Back in the 1960s two other openings were visible in the river bank a short distance downstream of "Long Tor Grot-hole". One was a sough I have read about I think (and the other?). What a pity I did not go for a paddle in the river and a crawl up those. I would have needed more batteries though as I only had a bike lamp on my first trip, "stinky" on my second though.
