Goatchurch Cavern

[Andy Sparrow]

in the latter half of the 70s it was official CSCC policy to promote a novice training scheme that advised that novices should be sent underground without a leader or a helmet.

.... presumably on the grounds that if they were still OK when they got back to daylight they would make a good caver.

During the 70s what was the cave rescue annual events list like?

There were about 4 times as many rescue incidents as there are today - almost one a month. Oddly enough the rationale for the CSCC scheme was based on rescue statistics. The case was argued by Fred Davies in a Descent article circa 1973 in which he presented this line of reasoning - the majority of rescues involved novices under supervision but very rarely novices who were self-led - the safest way for novices to learn was, therefore, was without a leader/instructor.

There was, as one or two persons pointed out, another way of interpreting the evidence - that the poor standard of leadership for novice trips was to blame. This interpretation was rejected by the Mendip worthies because it conflicted with their agenda. The real underlying issue that drove forward the CSCC philosophy was an instinctive dislike of leader certification schemes which, it was widely felt, ultimately threatened the traditional freedom of cavers.

 

[cap n chris]

Thanks for the info, Andy.

As an ex-CSCC secretary (there's a lot of them aren't there? :wink: ) I don't recall having box loads of 1974 "So you want to get rescued?" leaflets, therefore I doubt whether there are any still in existence but it would be nice to see one....

Any long-in-the-tooth cavers out there with a copy?

 

[graham]

Thanks for the info, Andy.

As an ex-CSCC secretary (there's a lot of them aren't there? :wink: ) I don't recall having box loads of 1974 "So you want to get rescued?" leaflets, therefore I doubt whether there are any still in existence but it would be nice to see one....

Any long-in-the-tooth cavers out there with a copy?

I'm sure there's onre around here somewhere, there must be one in the UBSS Library.

However, before you & Andy are rude about it again, just find out how many rescues the technique actually caused. I think you will find that Andy's analysis is not quite wholly accurate.

 

[Hughie]

in the latter half of the 70s it was official CSCC policy to promote a novice training scheme that advised that novices should be sent underground without a leader or a helmet.

.... presumably on the grounds that if they were still OK when they got back to daylight they would make a good caver.

During the 70s what was the cave rescue annual events list like?

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think this is good policy. It makes the novices focus on what they're actually doing, take note of their surroundings, and be responsible for themselves. I would imagine it sorts the plebs out at a very early stage. It's all too easy to rely on other people if they are there to rely on.

Am I the only one who thinks people should be able to exercise their spirit of adventure without being wrapped in cotton wool?

 

[Peter Burgess]

When I started going underground, I had not made proper contact with any club, or experienced caver, and sought no advice from same. It was a natural decision to go and get a helmet from a builders' merchant. I did it because I felt it was a sensible thing to do. If someone had advised me then that I should explore my first cave without a helmet, I would probably have questioned why he thought he needed one, and I didn't. I was not wrapping myself in cotton wool. I was protecting the most important organ in my body (well, maybe second most important :wink: )
Are site workers advised to spend their first day on a construction site without a helmet? I don't think so.

 

[badger]

could always use the method of leading from the back, give a person a passage to lead, or find out how they propose, route /method to a climb, so therefore making them think of what they are doing, the dangers /hazards involved ,part of educating people what leading is about and being responsible for themselves whilst in a reasonably controlled situation, knowing the route in a system is completely different to group management and group control underground, and a expierienced caver or caving ability does not necessarily make you a good cave leader. I think Andy Sparrow is right standards are improving but perhaps there is still a way to go especially if one looks at the many different amount of ways people rig swildons twenties

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Thanks for the info, Andy.

As an ex-CSCC secretary (there's a lot of them aren't there? :wink: ) I don't recall having box loads of 1974 "So you want to get rescued?" leaflets, therefore I doubt whether there are any still in existence but it would be nice to see one....

Any long-in-the-tooth cavers out there with a copy?

I'm sure there's onre around here somewhere, there must be one in the UBSS Library.

However, before you & Andy are rude about it again, just find out how many rescues the technique actually caused. I think you will find that Andy's analysis is not quite wholly accurate.

I think on this subject I can defend my analysis very robustly. It's not that I think self-leading is bad thing - in my opinion the best possible way for a caver to learn is by a combination of self-leading and good quality instruction. In fact I spend a lot of time trying to get adult novice cavers to get underground on their own initiative and not to rely on others to lead them but this is entirely different thing to sending children underground without adequate safety equipment or supervision. My real objection to 'Caving For Beginners' was that it purported to be about a progression in novice training but it was not - it was actually entirely ideological and motivated by what a certain clique of people were against, which was any form of certification for cavers or cave leaders.

 

[Peter Burgess]

We have a related discussion to this in the Surrey mines.

It concerns knowing your way around.

I contend that the best way to find your way around a very complex system of workings is to explore by degrees, going as far as you are comfortable to go, and push back the boundary of your knowledge in stages. Using a map will hinder this process, in my opinion. Referring to the map before and after the trip is very useful, however, to reinforce the new knowledge gained.

Being led around every time you explore will also not help.

Just as being shown what to do every time you go caving is perhaps not as educational as being encouraged to work it out for yourself. It is probably a good idea to do this in a controlled situation where a newbie can be watched to make sure they don't do anything stupid.

 

[Dave H]

My 10 year old daughter was in Goatchurch on Saturday morning (with furry, oversuit, Oldham lamp, belt, helmet, Mars Bar, survival bag, etc.) with a group of Scouts all wearing the correct safety gear and waterproofs, and some experienced leaders (one an HSE Inspector!)

On her return after exploring and 'surveying' the cave (sketch map!) when asked about the trip, she first asked how many times we have to rescue people who don't cave with the correct gear?

It begs the question that if a child can see the risks then why can't adults?

 

[cap n chris]

a group of Scouts all wearing the correct safety gear and waterproofs

At long last! Miracles do happen! Finally I have been proven wrong.

I guess you weren't accompanying the bloke with the carbide lamp (and northern accent - are the two linked?) allowing the children in his group to leave their wrappers from Breakaway bars etc. strewn amid the boulders on returning up the Coffin Lid?

 

[graham]

...it was actually entirely ideological and motivated by what a certain clique of people were against, which was any form of certification for cavers....

Are you in favour of certification for cavers Andy?

 

[cap n chris]

I think there's a distinction between "any form of certification" and "certification". It is always going to be possible to engage in an activity without actually needing any formal accreditation to show a degree of aptitude however there may be occasions when it is desirable to be able to ascertain that someone has a modicum of ability/responsibility/knowledge and this is where certification is useful. Put simply, the difference between someone who is a self-taught potential disaster area and someone who can bring people back safe and well time and time again.

I personally cannot ever foresee a situation where all cavers are required to have a certificate of aptitude since, for starters, it could never be administered.

Certification for cavers already exists (for those who want it) so there's probably not much merit in drawing a line in the sand and seeing who stands on which side.

 

[emgee]

My real objection to 'Caving For Beginners' was that it purported to be about a progression in novice training but it was not - it was actually entirely ideological and motivated by what a certain clique of people were against, which was any form of certification for cavers or cave leaders.

What my opponent thinks is ideology what I think is common sense.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

...it was actually entirely ideological and motivated by what a certain clique of people were against, which was any form of certification for cavers....

Are you in favour of certification for cavers Andy?

I am opposed to the certification of cavers but not to the certification of caving instructors. I would imagine the majority of cavers now subscribe to this view.

 

[whitelackington]

Talking of certification, is anyone within the C.S.C.C. currently certificated to install resin bolts,
I heard a rumur that they were going to P bolt Thrupe Lane

 

[graham]

Talking of certification, is anyone within the C.S.C.C. currently certificated to install resin bolts,
I heard a rumur that they were going to P bolt Thrupe Lane

We have certified installers but I am not sure that we have certified resin.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Some people say that I should be certified.

 

[Les W]

Talking of certification, is anyone within the C.S.C.C. currently certificated to install resin bolts,
I heard a rumur that they were going to P bolt Thrupe Lane

We have certified installers but I am not sure that we have certified resin.

Having recently spoken to BCA's equipment officer last saturday I can report that resin is not a problem. The new resin is identical to the old resin, made by the same manufacturer, to the same specification with the same constituents but packaged in a diffrent coloured tube. Apparently "Resifix 3+" was a specific brand for 1 customer who no longer requires it.

The problem is though that there is a shortage of "P" bolts. These are manufactured by DMM and BCA just bought the last batch. If we want any more then DMM will only retool and manufacture them for us in vast quantities at great cost - many thousands of pounds.
The equipment committee and the CNCC Technical Group are currently looking for alternatives. Until then "P" bolts are available but from a diminishing stock.

 

[epik]

First "caving" helmet I got was a builders helmet two for a quid from a second hand shop. Perfectly adequate for the couple of times I used it.

We used to use those aswell. Infact until only about 3 years go my dad still used one until he dropped it and it shattered - something tells me it wouldn't have afforded much protection in a fall! Infact 5 years ago we still used them for group use though we retired the fibreglass ones and only used newer plastic ones - All ecrins now!

On the people underground in inappropriate clothing once did a little caving in canada in a place called cadamin. We took loads of gear out with use and took half a day walking up to the cave which was 1000feet up a mountain.

We were about a hour into the cave and stopped to look around when we heard a hissing. It got louder and louder until a couple of kids came down the passage in normal clothes carrying a hissing tilly lamp! They seemed to know where they were going and were friendly if a little amused by our attire. They disapeared down the cave!

 

[kay]

Not caving, but the inappropriate clothing theme reminded me ...

Someone of my acquaintance was storming up a hill in the Lake District, full mountain gear, trouser, waterproofs, hat etc. She looked up to see a lady coming the other way dressed in shorts and a skimpy top, who remarked as they passed "One of us is inappropriately dressed!"


"There's no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing"