Guardian article

alastairgott

alastairgott

Well-known member
bograt said:
Many thanks for that clarification Badlad, maybe BCA should be looking into advice and 'best practice' for diggers ?. (I can just imagine what response this will get from Mendip !!!)

Landowners and cavers should be strongly made aware that CRoW does NOT apply to surface diggers and landowners rights and existing arrangements remain in force in that respect.
Click to expand...

There is already a document which lays out the best practice for digging, clearly it varies from place to place. And time to time but clear guidance has been given for SSSI digging. It is good guidence to follow for digs which are not on SSSI land.

Here for yorkshire- http://cncc.org.uk/publications/documents/CNCC_Digging_Guidlines.pdf

Here for derbyshire- http://thedca.org.uk/images/dca/publications/leaflets/Cave-Digging.pdf

Don't really know about other locations.
 
H

Huge

Well-known member
Badlad said:
Sorry, I may be wrong, and it wasn't the point I was making anyway, but it doesn't sound like you had permission from the Landowner at all.  Even if Brian at the local pub was in a position to give you permission on behalf of the landowner you had clearly been digging there before he gave that permission.  You admit yourself that if you asked for permission it would be denied.
Click to expand...

I realise it wasn't the point you were making Badlad but you said

Badlad said:
At Draenen, the original entrance was dug without landowner consent, in fact the diggers were told they would not be granted permission, but they continued anyway.
Click to expand...

My reading of this is that you are saying the dig was started (not on the surface btw but inside the cave), then, while still in the process of digging out the entrance, we found out that we would not be granted permission but carried on digging anyway. As I've pointed out, that wasn't the case. If you've been told something different, you've been misled.

Badlad said:
My information came from a respected and trusted source and I have passed that onto Clive.
Click to expand...

I'd be greatful if you would pass that information onto me as well. Unless the source is one of the diggers, they wouldn't KNOW. A little while ago someone stated on this forum that members of Morgannwg CC had removed the gate from Blaen Onnue Quarry Pot. I pointed out that MCC had nothing at all to do with it, it was in fact another club that had done the deed. Much like you, he said his information came from a respected and trusted source. Chinese whispers?

I'm not trying to score points Badlad, just put the record straight, warts and all. What you stated was wrong.
 
Clive G

Clive G

Member
Huge said:
Badlad said:
At Draenen, the original entrance was dug without landowner consent, in fact the diggers were told they would not be granted permission, but they continued anyway.
Click to expand...

I know Clive has already commented on this but I feel that I also, being one of the Draenen diggers, have to point out that this statement is incorrect.

The then landowner, did not tell us or anyone else for that matter, that permission to dig would not be granted if asked for. So we did not 'continue anyway' with the dig, in the knowledge that the landowner would not grant permission.

As far as I am aware, no cavers ever asked permission to dig on the Pwll Du hillside. Before we started digging at Draenen, a few sites had already been opened up by cavers. Sites such as Tumble East Resurgence, Ogof Cadno Gwal (only a few metres from the Draenen entrance) and Draenen itself, which had been opened up from the surface and dug to a length of a few metres by members of two other clubs, neither of whom, as far as I know, asked permission to dig.

Following a digging session, we would call into the Lamb and Fox for a pint. Brian, the landlord, was obviously curious as to why a group of muddy people were turning up at his pub, late on a Thursday night. When we told him what we were doing, his response was 'Oh, you're alright going there'.

. . .
Click to expand...

Well, actually, on 28th June 1989, I had an informal telephone conversation (duration 39' 30") - introducing myself as a cave explorer interested in subterranean tunnels in the Pwll Du area - with the Opencast Executive ( http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/record?catid=3800&catln=3 ) of the British Coal Corporation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Coal ), based at Aberaman, who seemed to be the body in control at Pwll Du at the time. We had a further telephone conversation (duration 2' 20") on 6th July. I should expect that their administrative records have been archived and kept on file somewhere. So, somewhere, in a telephone log, there should be a record of the two conversations.

My earlier conversation with the nearest occupier of the land, Brian Lewis, around June 1988, coupled with the one with the Opencast Executive in July 1989, forms the basis for the point I am making that permission to look for subterranean tunnels in the area had been broached and obtained verbally, if not in writing.

I was a member of Morgannwg Caving Club when these conversations took place.

As far as I understand things, the next informal telephone conversation took place with the Coal Authority. The point being here that the Coal Authority was brought into being by the Coal Industry Act 1994 ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/21/contents ) and became active on 31st October 1994 ( http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20081107203027/coal.gov.uk/resources/environment/historyofminewater.cfm ) - after the main Ogof Draenen cave system had been entered for the first time on Thursday 6th October 1994.

Prior to all this no one seems to know the situation, but any surviving members from the British Nylon Spinners' Speleology Sub-section and/or Cwmbran Caving Club and Brynmawr Caving Club during the 1950s-70s may well know a little more about how the initial surface digging was done on Gilwern Hill and at Pwll Du.
 
Clive G

Clive G

Member
Why can't you add an edit once you've cooked and eaten tea after making a posting?!

CORRECTION:

My earlier conversation with the nearest occupier of the land, Brian Lewis, around June 1988, coupled with the two with the Opencast Executive in June and July 1989, forms the basis for the point I am making that permission to look for subterranean tunnels in the area had been broached and obtained verbally, if not in writing.
 
Alex

Alex

Well-known member
Yep Tom first line on the BCA page "maintain and seek to improve access to caves and sites of speleological interest."
 
J

jasonbirder

Member
...'real cavers' actually speak to people that can help them in a reasonable way, rather than standing on a soapbox and demanding their 'rights'.
Click to expand...

Would it be fair to assume that when walking a public footpath...you stop at each farm and landowner and ask permission before continuing?
After all it would be wrong to "demand" your rights as granted in law...and far more sensible to speak to each individual landowner...
 
droid

droid

Active member
jasonbirder said:
Would it be fair to assume that when walking a public footpath...you stop at each farm and landowner and ask permission before continuing?
After all it would be wrong to "demand" your rights as granted in law...and far more sensible to speak to each individual landowner...
Click to expand...

I was referring to the situation we have now, not the situation we might have in the future.....lol

And it has already been explained that permission will still be needed for digging (which is what was being discussed in this part of the thread) even if CRoW *did* apply to caves.....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top