Guided climbing (and caving?)

[graham]

On another thread, I was wrongly castigated for not supporting a complaint about a left-wing (apparently, I actually have no idea of Tanya Gold's politics) rant about Everest while cheerfully (!) attacking a right-wing 'newspaper'. Ok, well here's a column which essentially agrees with Ms Gold's point of view but has been written in the Times by one Giles Coren who is not known for his socialist affiliations.

Why do I bring this up, again? Well, that's because I can see the beginnings of similar circumstances in caving. When most people think about professional cavers, certainly in a UK context, they think about trainers, or, at most, people who are leading youth groups or other 'taster' sessions. However, there is a wind of change about and it seems to be happening with very little debate in the UK caving world.

I have, once or twice, come across groups who 'seemed' to be moderately experienced cavers but who wished to hire a guide to take them down certain caves with which they were unfamiliar. in addition, the discussion document on professional caving circulated by the BCA included a section on guided trips. I queried this in my response to that document but I cannot see that this particular issue was addressed in any of the responses that I've seen. This is what the original discussion document said:

Guiding: This is a traditional non-professional caving trip, but the cavers concerned may wish to extend their skills to a wider range of caves and/or techniques. This type of trip will be very similar to a non-professional trip but will be expertly led. There is probably an average of one of these sessions taking place every month across the whole of the UK.

Two things immediately jump out of this, one is that the BCA was accepting that such trips took place, though there is no mention of where the frequency data comes from; the other was that the document was implicit in wanting such trips supported in access agreements despite their seemingly being no category of 'guide' amongst the BCA's own qualifications.

This is rather odd and requires, I think, a degree of discussion within UK caving  before we unwittingly find ourselves in the Nepalese situation where it is proposed to put ladders on the 'harder bits' (The Hillary Step on Everest) to facilitate the passage of the less expert in greater numbers and where, as last year on Everest, you have fights breaking out between wholly amateur climbers and professional guides over use of rigged gear and the potential dangers of sharing the route, as in causing rock-falls and the like.

Perhaps this won't ever be a serious issue in UK caving. Perhaps it will. best we talk about it before it creeps up on us, though.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I would like to see more individuals or clubs offering, when the opportunity arises, to help a group unfamiliar with an area or a cave, without charge or obligation, on the unwritten assumption that said clubs/individuals might expect something similar in return when they visit an area or cave unfamiliar to them. All this done on an ad hoc basis, as friends helping each other. Usually, when I have taken a few cavers, or even individuals on trips, I am offered "If you are ever up/down our way, please let us know and we can offer a trip to xyz". It might almost become like "Adopt a Cave" but not in conservation terms, but providing assistance to fellow cavers in arranging and facilitating trips. I know this happens already, but were it to become more common, perhaps the need to hire a guide would disappear?

 

[JB]

There isn't a clear distinction between what someone might term 'guided' trips and 'training' and most days will be both. There's a continuum though and depending on what your clients want to do/achieve/learn there will be a different slant. What you (or whoever wrote this BCA document) might term a guided trip is essentially LCMLA-holders and CICs doing their job in the various cave environments and using techniques in which they have been deemed to be competent. There's no need for a seperate 'guiding' qualification for caves. IFMGA mountain guides are working in a specific geographical area (above the level of glaciers) with specific risks. They have to be competent to manage the associated risks of mountaineering, climbing, skiing and glacier travel. Very specific environment and risks.

before we unwittingly find ourselves in the Nepalese situation where it is proposed to put ladders on the 'harder bits' (The Hillary Step on Everest) to facilitate the passage of the less expert in greater numbers and where, as last year on Everest, you have fights breaking out between wholly amateur climbers and professional guides over use of rigged gear and the potential dangers of sharing the route, as in causing rock-falls and the like.

Perhaps this won't ever be a serious issue in UK caving. Perhaps it will. best we talk about it before it creeps up on us, though.

I'm sure that the numbers of trips like this are very small but don't have figures. In Derbyshire at least the cavers involved in equipping caves on behalf of DCA under the BCA anchor scheme are very conscious that we should not be equipping caves with the intention of making caving artificially easier. It would detract from the challenge and cause problems. People coming to caving should accept the challenge on its own terms - cos that's one of the aspects that what we enjoy about it!

I really don't think there's anything to worry about. My perspective as a CIC-holder anyway.

JB

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I have been offering and providing a guiding service for the last 25 years.  Typically the clients have been cavers of various levels of experience (usually but not always without club affiliations) who have wanted to undertake visits to areas with which they are unfamiliar, such as classic SRT trips in the Dales (where tackle requirements and provision are also a factor).  In my experience this type of instruction has diminished significantly over the last decade, and it has now been several years since I was asked to undertake it.  CIC is effectively a 'guiding' qualification as it permits the holder to lead groups into any UK system (access permitting) that they consider appropriate.  So, yes, it's always been there and still is, but it's not growing as a phenomena, quite the opposite in fact.  No wind of change, and nothing to get worked up about.

 

[JB]

I would like to see more individuals or clubs offering, when the opportunity arises, to help a group unfamiliar with an area or a cave, without charge or obligation, on the unwritten assumption that said clubs/individuals might expect something similar in return when they visit an area or cave unfamiliar to them. All this done on an ad hoc basis, as friends helping each other. Usually, when I have taken a few cavers, or even individuals on trips, I am offered "If you are ever up/down our way, please let us know and we can offer a trip to xyz". It might almost become like "Adopt a Cave" but not in conservation terms, but providing assistance to fellow cavers in arranging and facilitating trips. I know this happens already, but were it to become more common, perhaps the need to hire a guide would disappear?

I agree with all this and have enjoyed some great 'away' trips hosted by other clubs . The Eldon have certainly shown most Derbyshire clubs round the more fragile parts of Bagshawe over the last few years and I'm sure these clubs would be happy to do the same in the caves that they know well (if we can drag ourselves out of Bagshawe).

I would add that I (obviously!) don't think there's anything wrong with hiring someone to organise and take some responsibility for a caving trip for you. Everyone's lives/motivations/interests are different and if some people choose to employ someone to make all the arrangements, organise the kit, do the research, organise transport, offer some training, do the rigging efficiently and lead an enjoyable caving trip I hope that's fine. The key thing is that the cave isn't damaged - LCMLA-holders and CICs ought to be very aware of that.

Jules.

 

[JasonC]

... but it's not growing as a phenomena, quite the opposite in fact.  No wind of change, and nothing to get worked up about.

- but let's not allow common-sense to stand in the way of a good row, eh?

When I think of guided caving, I think of those arrangements for 'special' caves (Otter Hole, for example) where it is a condition of access. Hardly like the Everest scenario.

 

[graham]

Fairy 'nuff.

So any idea why the BCA document raised this particular issue at all, if pressure for this sort of thing is next to non-existent?

 

[mrodoc]

It's an interesting topic. I presume we are talking about commerce because many of us must have taken non regular cavers on special trips. For example I took a film cameraman friend of mine into Reservoir Hole. You couldn't call him a caver but he was perfectly competent to do the trip (he made a cave diving film in Norway many years ago at the beginning of his career). However he wouldn't have gone without somebody who knew the cave. Yes, I know there is a leader system anyway but that wasn't the point. In fact I can confidently state that I have taken caving  a number of people who wouldn't consider themselves cavers but are a darn site better at moving around underground than some who would.

I suspect that although the idea of commercial guided caving for cometetent indivduals is currently rare in the UK I am sure it exists in other parts of the world eg Borneo.

Those people who pay for trips are really though being lazy. They haven't learnt how to find their way underground and I would therefore regard them as not that appreciative of the cave environment. Route finding is like tracking - you have learn to look about and read the signs. I wasn't led on a caving trip until i entered a cave where a leader was required and I have always attempted to become a leader when I can because I hate being led around. I have experience of bored leaders and leaders who need help in certain sections for example. That does not inspired confidence!

 

[exsumper]

Fairy 'nuff.

So any idea why the BCA document raised this particular issue at all, if pressure for this sort of thing is next to non-existent?

Why not ask the BCA? I'm sure they'd tell you?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Those people who pay for trips are really though being lazy. They haven't learnt how to find their way underground and I would therefore regard them as not that appreciative of the cave environment.

A couple of years ago I hired an Alpine guide to take me and a couple of friends down the Vallee Blanche - a classic off piste ski route.  A guide was a wise investment considering that we were skiing over snow-bridged crevasses that claim lives nearly every year.    Was this lazy of me?  Should I have dedicated more of my time to gaining the required skills and local knowledge?  Was I less applicative of the spectacular scenery because I had hired a guide, to the extent that I was undeserving to be there?  Somebody explain to me, please, why it's acceptable to hire a mountain guide but not a cave guide....

 

[mrodoc]

I didn't say it wasn't acceptable. I just considered it a short cut for those who don't want to get too involved. Another area where I don't like being guided but it's standard practice is scuba diving. Nearly everywhere one goes one is led by a dive master in an underwater gaggle. It is very frustrating if you are a photographer. Bonaire is one of my favourite destinations for that reason - you can hire the gear and go off on your own. There are published guides to the dive sites. There is good cave diving to be had inland althugh I have never managed to persuade any CDG members it would be a good trip even with 200 recorded caves on the island.

So

 

[Badlad]

Fairy 'nuff.

So any idea why the BCA document raised this particular issue at all, if pressure for this sort of thing is next to non-existent?

I may be wrong, but I think this is all to do with access for so called 'commercial' caving.  Guided caving can be seen as one of many aspects of the 'commercial' caving sector.  'Commercial' caving maybe better described as 'instructed' caving, 'professional' caving, or in this case 'guided' caving.  I think BCA were trying to demonstrate the many different types of so called 'commercial' caving.  This seemed to be, at least in part, a response to the broad brush approach of banning 'commercial' caving on Leck and Casterton Fells.  There is no clear line between recreational and 'commercial' caving as both blur a long way into each other.  Guided caving is a typical example of this.  Many cavers are guided through a cave by a friend or fellow caver for free, many pay to join a club so that they can be guided, a few choose to pay an instructor to guide them.  In the case of Leck and Casterton it was reported that some 'commercial' cavers were advertising guided trips to certain caves on these fells and when this was pointed out to the landowner he instructed a ban.  I understand BCA is trying to show that not all commercial caving is about making money, if you know what I mean.

 

[droid]

I don't see that, badlad.

Commercial caving: someone is paid to take others caving, be that instruction or showing them the route.

Non-Commercial caving: no money changes hands.

No need to over-complicate things.

 

[JB]

I have read the document that your quote is from but can't remember who the author was. Presumably it does say on it? Might have been the BCA training officer/committee or might have been from the CNCC. I think the document basically sets out all the different types of commercial i.e. for profit caving that happens. I'm sure that the 'guided' trip that you refer to is a tiny (and remaining consistently tiny!) fraction of the commercial caving days that happen. I don't know what the intended audience of the document was. However I think it was used as part of a discussion about which of those types of commercial caving would be allowed on permit areas.

Jules.

 

[jasonbirder]

There is no clear line between recreational and 'commercial' caving as both blur a long way into each other.  Guided caving is a typical example of this.  Many cavers are guided through a cave by a friend or fellow caver for free, many pay to join a club so that they can be guided, a few choose to pay an instructor to guide them. 

Firstly to stress...no axe to grind about Commercial Caving...some of my best mates and many of my Caving Buddies are Qualified Instructors and that's how they earn their living...

But to try and imply there is a grey line between recreational and commercial caving is just plain daft...

If you choose to pay an instructor to guide you...that's Commercial Caving...you're "buying" someones expertise...ultimately don't have to take responsibility for your own safety and the person you are paying has "a duty of care"

When you cave with friends or as part of a club...you may lead others...or you may be lead...depending on your skill level...knowledge of particular techniques or systems...but you're looking out for each other...and that's everyone's responsibility...there's no transaction or onus of responsibility on anyone...at varying stages we've all been on one side or the other of the help/helped equation...maybe both sides on the same trip sometimes...that's what caving's about...camaraderie...

I don't like the idea of blurring it...when I've been in Otter and someone lead the trip...or the gated extensions in Bagshawe for example...my safety and conserving the cave environment hadn't been outsourced to someone...they were my responsibility...the only reward the leader got was either thanks or a pint at the end of it...

I worry that people try to "blur" a VERY concrete distinction do so with the motive of opening up dangerous and/or sensitive systems to Commercial Groups that don't have either the skills or the care to be in them...

 

[ah147]

On the subject of hiring a guide: As an alpine climber and a caver I would never consider it. Part of my enjoyment derives from trying to organise successful trips and navigate/predict hazards myself. If I am unable to successfully try and do this, for my own motives, I question whether I should be on the trip in the first place.

However, other peoples motives are different and may just want to see spectacular pretties or fantastic scenery, or simply the sporting aspects. The navigation and organisation aspect may not appeal to people on certain trips. So a guide is wholly appropriate and perfectly acceptable in my eyes.

Therefore guiding, whether professionally or club/friend based needs to be addressed.

In my eyes this is already perfectly addressed in caving:

Want to do a horizontal cave? A level 1 has been assessed on their knowledge of those specific caves on their ticket and can take novices down. If you can take novices, you can take experienced cavers.

If you want to do a cave with a small pitch, a level 2 is qualified as per level 1.

Want to do a harder cave/no-one has it on their ticket? Then a CIC is appropriate as they are qualified to lead parties through any underground system they deem to be appropriate for the guided party in the UK. The same way a mountain guide is qualified to take a party on any route in their specified areas they deem to be appropriate.

Then amateur guiding? This is a no brainer as friends/clubs don't take responsibility unless they directly cause an accident, as per normal underground training.

Can't speak for Otter Hole and bagshawe but I was told the other week in DYO they are not technically guiding but rather conservation officers and the party should be fully competent to undertake the trip themselves and the officer tags along to ensure no damage occurs. Though I understand in practice it doesn't work this way!

On the subject of easing the experience to cater for larger numbers, I appreciate the many similarities between caving and high altitude mountaineering. However, as it was explained to me. "Using a ladder on a 12ft boulder problem guarantees success. Using a ladder on a crevasse to ascend a mountain does not guarantee success"

A common sense attitude, which I believe shall prevail in this instance, is always the best way. Hence why some climbs  in caves are free climbs and some climbs have a handline, some are full SRT and some have ladders. Not too clued up on Everest but I believe the Hillary step is the last major challenge therefore a ladder almost guarantees success. So is unlikely to be placed.

As a note to Graham: the fight wasn't between wholly amateur climbers and Sherpas. The fight was entirely between 100% climbers, the three Europeans are actually qualified guides and full time sponsored climbers/guides/photographers. The fight was also rather low down (in perspective) and was over not using fixed rigging but climbing above the Sherpas that we're fixing the rigging, unwritten rules about not doing this as it's considered disrespectful (bear in mind the European party were doing something that's never been done before so the rules aren't so clear) and then some nasty name calling by one of the Europeans adding to the disrespect shown for the Sherpas. But this is just pedantry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Badlad]

The original quote about guiding was from a draft BCA leaflet on commercial caving aimed at landowners.  It is detailed in the minutes of the January BCA meeting.  Guiding was one of six types of commercial caving that it covered.  The leaflet wasn't approved in it's current form.

I do take your point about the line between recreational and commercial caving, but I still see a blur.  If my group of recreational cavers decide to hire a guide for a system we are unfamiliar with we are still recreational cavers in my view, but we would be viewed as a commercially run trip and excluded from a number of systems.  My same group could pay to join a club so that we could get the same guided access to the same system but we would then be recreational.  Money changes hands in both cases.

I'm also not sure what to make of clubs which operate as limited companies running commercial operations (winch meets etc) to earn club funds.

There are also paid instructors running BCA courses on land that has banned commercial caving.  Apparently, in these cases it is not seen as commercial.  So, in practice, recreational/commercial doesn't seem so clear cut to me.

 

[jasonbirder]

Under what circumstances would a

group...pay to join a club so that we could get....guided access to the same system

?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Commercial implies money changing hands. However, money changing hands is not necessarily a commercial transaction. Clubs which are non-profit making limited companies do not operate commercially. Their mem and arts ought to contain a clause to this effect. If the mem and arts include a clause to the effect that monies raised are not for distribution to members, then funds raised are solely to promote the aims and objects of the society concerned. Let's make this clear please. Clubs that operate as charities and/or non-profit making limited companies are NOT commercial organisations. This is a diversion from the point of Graham's post, but I feel it is important to state this.

 

[graham]

I have read the document that your quote is from but can't remember who the author was.

The email with which it was circulated came from Damian Weare, as BCA Secretary, but the document itself has no mention of authorship. It was circulated originally in June last year (from the date on the email) which is, I think, some time before the CNCC thing kicked off, though I may be wrong about that. bear in mind that it was produced after a consultation that started some significant time earlier, I responded to that in January last year.