cavingbiker
Active member
Hi Mikem, the https://hinko.org/hinko/Dowloads/BCRA/BCRA%2026-2-1999.pdf does work, it returns "The requested URL was not found on this server." Cheers.
History of caving in the Dales
- Thread starter thehungrytroglobite
- Start date
Lost the www:
Interestingly, bcra use dow(cave?)loads rather than down!
Interestingly, bcra use dow(cave?)loads rather than down!
langcliffe
Well-known member
Stephen Craven is a fine speleo-historian, but in this particular article he doesn't seem to appreciate that 'pastor' and Hutton were the same person, and that Hutton's 'Tour..." was published as an appendix in West's 'Guide to the Lakes' before it was published as a stand-alone book, rather than after.
langcliffe
Well-known member
The finest work on Hutton's 'Tour...' was done by Trevor Shaw, and was published in 'Studies in Speleology', Vol. 2, Parts 3-4, September 1971, pp.109-128, William Pengelly Studies Trust Ltd.
langcliffe
Well-known member
He can't have read Trevor's paper very thoroughly!
Well there were 20 pages of it, but craven did write:
"In 1761 there appeared a description of ingleborough Hill, written by an anonymous clergyman with the pseudonym Pastor (Anon, 1761). Shaw (1971) has argued convincingly that the writer was John Hutton, even though at that time he was still an undergraduate at St John 's College, Cambridge. He was not ordained until 1763."
"In 1761 there appeared a description of ingleborough Hill, written by an anonymous clergyman with the pseudonym Pastor (Anon, 1761). Shaw (1971) has argued convincingly that the writer was John Hutton, even though at that time he was still an undergraduate at St John 's College, Cambridge. He was not ordained until 1763."
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thehungrytroglobite
Well-known member
Ooh, that is particularly interesting as I am an alumni of Cambridge University Caving Club. Obviously we weren't around in Hutton's time, but still a fascinating historical link
Franklin
Member
Hi HT,
I may have given you this info before, not sure. Anyway, the 'Pastor' text from 1761 was published in the Gentleman's Magazine - I have a copy somewhere (buried, needs digging out) but I found this copy of it in Alexander Catcott's A Treatise on the Deluge of 1768, itself an interesting 18th Century perspective on cave formation.
Hutton is one great source though John Housman's two guidebooks of 1800 are also excellent. Housman's grasp of the karst landscape of the Dales is more detailed than Hutton's. Also worth considering William Cockin - the editor of West's Guide to the Lakes from the second edition (West had died by then) that included Hutton's Tour to the Caves. Cockin also came from Burton-in-Kendal - a friend or acquaintance of Hutton? Hutton says he goes on the tour with two friends - possibly Cockin and Thomas Pearson, also of Burton-in-Kendal (the book is dedicated to him). I spent a day with a local historian in Burton-in-Kendal when trying to find Hutton's grave in the churchyard (possible headstones are heavily weathered and it can't be clearly identified) - and she says the traces of Hutton are few and far between - his grave location is not found in the church records. I'd assume that the poem on caves found in the appendix in later editions of West's Guide to the Lakes was written by Cockin rather than Hutton (its attached to the Tour of the Caves). Cockin was also a poet and it is very much in his style.
There were clearly a number of people interesting in caves at this time other than farmers and miners.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Frank
I may have given you this info before, not sure. Anyway, the 'Pastor' text from 1761 was published in the Gentleman's Magazine - I have a copy somewhere (buried, needs digging out) but I found this copy of it in Alexander Catcott's A Treatise on the Deluge of 1768, itself an interesting 18th Century perspective on cave formation.
Hutton is one great source though John Housman's two guidebooks of 1800 are also excellent. Housman's grasp of the karst landscape of the Dales is more detailed than Hutton's. Also worth considering William Cockin - the editor of West's Guide to the Lakes from the second edition (West had died by then) that included Hutton's Tour to the Caves. Cockin also came from Burton-in-Kendal - a friend or acquaintance of Hutton? Hutton says he goes on the tour with two friends - possibly Cockin and Thomas Pearson, also of Burton-in-Kendal (the book is dedicated to him). I spent a day with a local historian in Burton-in-Kendal when trying to find Hutton's grave in the churchyard (possible headstones are heavily weathered and it can't be clearly identified) - and she says the traces of Hutton are few and far between - his grave location is not found in the church records. I'd assume that the poem on caves found in the appendix in later editions of West's Guide to the Lakes was written by Cockin rather than Hutton (its attached to the Tour of the Caves). Cockin was also a poet and it is very much in his style.
There were clearly a number of people interesting in caves at this time other than farmers and miners.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Frank
Franklin
Member
Yes, Pitlamp, I found it in one of the on-line archives in the library at Lancaster University when I worked and studied there. As student and staff I had access - sadly those days are gone. Given the nature of the database, I'd assume the physical archive is in the British Library. Unfortunately, my British Library loan card is now out of date. As HT writes above, access to these databases and archives is very expensive for individuals. My partner has access to her university library (and these archives), however, the libraries are becoming so protective of their expensive on-line materials that you have to verify your on-line ID via messages to and from your phone. Its okay if she is nearby but I'm sunk if she's at work!
When I have a mo (and she's sat next to me), I'll try and find the GM database. I remember it being a bit of a faf!
Frank
When I have a mo (and she's sat next to me), I'll try and find the GM database. I remember it being a bit of a faf!
Frank
caving_fox
Active member
Although if you need an article and can find the DOI/link for it, you never know who might be able to make possible public access to things that public money paid to create.
Franklin
Member
Another early cave enthusiast is the remarkable Adam Walker. I've attached four scans of from my copy of West's Guide to the Lakes (2nd edition of 1780) the edition that Cockin added the appendix. It includes two pieces by Walker separate from Hutton's Tour to the Caves. One is to Dunald Mill Hole and the second to a trip to Chapel-le-dale and Hurtle, Jingling and Weathercote caves. The Dunald Mill piece pre-dates Pastor's piece by a year.
Walker was an engineer, chemist, teacher and early caver. He briefly taught the poet Percy Bysshe Shelley. Of Shelley's poems (in this case poetic drama) Prometheus Unbound has many references to the underground, my favourite being 'the deep air's unmeasured wilderness' (brilliant!). I think he possibly coined the phrase 'caverns of the mind' in an essay on philosophy and the mind, though Wordsworth had earlier written 'caverns there were in my mind.' I like to think he discussed caves with Walker.
Anyway, there you go - poetry, phew!
Frank
Walker was an engineer, chemist, teacher and early caver. He briefly taught the poet Percy Bysshe Shelley. Of Shelley's poems (in this case poetic drama) Prometheus Unbound has many references to the underground, my favourite being 'the deep air's unmeasured wilderness' (brilliant!). I think he possibly coined the phrase 'caverns of the mind' in an essay on philosophy and the mind, though Wordsworth had earlier written 'caverns there were in my mind.' I like to think he discussed caves with Walker.
Anyway, there you go - poetry, phew!
Frank
It's fairly random which are freely available online, pastor is on p.126-128 (caves mostly 127):
Same website has this from 1892 and various other publications:
The gentleman's magazine v.31 1761.
babel.hathitrust.org
Same website has this from 1892 and various other publications:
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& also this one from 1869, see p.125-126 [spaws are spas], which lists Hutton's tour to the caves ("a well written book"), Thomas Dixon's a description of the environs of ingleborough from 1781, a tour to yordes cave by William Seward 1801, & an illustrated guide to the curiosities of craven by William Howson 1850 ("a good guide book, neatly got up" - some of the other reviews are not so forgiving!):
Lankyman
Active member
I went for a walk today and called into the church at Beetham (just across the M6 from Burton). There are several Huttons mentioned on various monument plaques mounted on the inside walls. I didn't spot any Hutton graves outside - wasn't looking though. 'William', who was a vicar there features on several and he died in 1811 and is buried just in front of the lectern. One of the plaques is for his first wife, Mary, who died aged 29 in 1768. If I'm reading it correctly, Mary was the daughter of a certain 'Mr John Hutton of Helslack of this Parish'. Was John William's uncle or unrelated? Not sure where 'Helslack' is but it could be Hazelslack - there is Hazelslack Tower not far away.
Hutton looks like a local name - there's Priest Hutton village as well not far away.
Franklin
Member
I don't know, Hutton could be a local name - there are several place names locally (nearby Hutton Roof) and there appeared to be a number of Huttons in and around Burton, however, there is a nearby village named Hutton where I live in Preston - and the surname is quite common here. And the great early Scottish geologist, James Hutton, has the name too. Huttons everywhere! 
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