Horrified By " Cavers of Facebook "

ZombieCake

Well-known member
Yeah, carbide would have added a nice diffuse glow and accented a few shadows, and rendered a nice colour temperature.  ;)  :ang:    ;)

Is the KS book in the caving library?  Just asking for a friend....
 

Jenny P

Active member
ZombieCake said:
Yeah, carbide would have added a nice diffuse glow and accented a few shadows, and rendered a nice colour temperature.  ;)  :ang:    ;)

Is the KS book in the caving library?  Just asking for a friend....

In short, no.
 

tamarmole

Active member
mrodoc said:
I was amused by the story about a mine. I thought they were there for the extraction of minerals ;)

Were, as in past tense. 

Abandoned mines are an incredibly valuable (and finite) archaeological and mineralogical resource and as such are every bit as worthy of conservation as natural cave.  Whilst underground mineral collection can be justified on academic grounds the vast majority of mineral collectors are in it for wholly selfish reasons and see no problem in destroying valuable archaeological sites in pursuit of their greed.  How many people who remove minerals from a mine write a article which appears in a peer reviewed journal and furthers our knowledge (foe example) and how many people collect minerals to gloat over in private with no benefit  to scholarship or the wider world. 

Personally I like to see minerals in situ where they can be appreciated in their proper context by everybody who has the skills and makes the effort to get to them.  I've seen too much wanton vandalism by mineral collectors here in my stomping ground, the Tamar Valley, to have any sympathy with them; pack walls torn down, ore chutes ripped to pieces, all of which leave mines less safe for later explorers, diminishes the pleasure of being underground and destroys a valuable resource.

And people wonder why mine explorers are so secretive.

End of rant.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Here are another three piccies from the same Facebook group (fresh posting).

This is a cave is France and is clearly very ?pretty?.

However, we can observe what appears to be a quandary in that, the access to the ?pretties? appears to require some human contact.

So, to explore or not to explore, that would seem to be the question ?.

This, perhaps, highlights the diversity of opinions and values.


Ian

 

Attachments

  • Conv1.jpg
    Conv1.jpg
    823.6 KB · Views: 208
  • Conv2.jpg
    Conv2.jpg
    567.4 KB · Views: 203
  • conv3.jpg
    conv3.jpg
    746.3 KB · Views: 177

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Ian Adams said:
Here are another three piccies from the same Facebook group (fresh posting).

This is a cave is France and is clearly very ?pretty?.

However, we can observe what appears to be a quandary in that, the access to the ?pretties? appears to require some human contact.

So, to explore or not to explore, that would seem to be the question ?.

This, perhaps, highlights the diversity of opinions and values.


Ian

It also depends how active that bit of cave is, and how clean people are going in. The caving appears to be wearing some sort of trainers and a wetsuit, rather than muddy caving gear...
 

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
I have left the site rather than get wound up by it. The bottom photo is worse. Is the subject there merely to create the image ? Perhaps another route could have been found further to the left if it is a trade route. Clearly the way has been climbed before so why not rehang the rope to avoid the white stal. It's not the cleanliness of the caver that is the issue it is the perception that this is an OK thing to do.
 

Fjell

Well-known member
A few months ago I was going upstream from Holbeck junction and I came to the calcite oxbow. It has been a while, so I went left to check whether I should be in the stream. It was possibly passable in the lowish water, but I knew it wasn?t the voie normale. The oxbow was in pristine condition with calcite rafts on the pools. Probably a while since it had seen any flow or people. It didn?t seem right. The only alternative is Gypsum and Easter Grotto, which is hardly an improvement.
For excessive climbing on calcite then the Gournier is the spot. You are barely ever off it. And then there is marching off the Great Wubble Heap straight through the Hall of 13. I felt queasy about that too even after trying to clean up as best you could.
We have an impact, even on solid rock. The entrance passage in County bears witness to that.
Comical as it sounds now, I very distinctly remember there being a large translucent curtain in the Roof Tunnel when I was little. Was I dreaming? Or just freezing from the low airspace duck (where that?).
Ho hum.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Looking at the bottom photo it seems to me that to rig to avoid the flowstone would possibly involve a really tight deviation higher up, but it's almost impossible to tell from the shots what 'should' be happening. Personally I don't have an issue with any of those shots - they're not muddy and all seem to be wearing sympathetic clothing, and the flowstone appears robust. And if the entire cave is covered in the stuff does that mean no-one can visit or explore it? Or just the first 'lucky' few? If we can't go caving somewhere because it's 'too attractive' to be there, then we really are in a quandary. Put tape down and accept a tiny bit of 'change' (as it's only 'damage' under very specific criteria) as a result of the discovery. My main project is still locked (at the landowner's request), but it's to protect mining archaeology whilst it's documented, but we won't prevent folks from accessing it once it has been, even though it can't be removed or protected any better.

If breaking stal means a massive extension to a promising cave (and there have been plenty), who makes the call? If you ask the 'authorities' for their opinion, whoever they might be, they will inevitably say no, even though they'll never see or appreciate the 'before' or the 'after' - or even really understand the question. And what about breaking through boulder chokes - really? That's an irrevocable change to the cave fabric that can never be restored, and folks post photos of themselves doing that every week - I don't really understand when the 'moral' part kicks in if it's breaking flowstone instead of 'just' muddy boulders.

Maybe it's because I cave in Derbyshire mostly, but I don't get that excited by flowstone - it's just an obvious byproduct of a chemical reaction, though it's undeniably attractive. But there's some stal on the wall of a local car-park near my house. Caves without flowstone deposits are no less interesting for not having them, and probably don't get the protection they should as a result, and mines probably even less so. I hammered quite a few inches off the vein-wall of a Scheduled Monument the other day, but it was mostly mud or shitty lilac sugar-spar, trying to find some good limestone to get an anchor in. And I had permission. But the choice (imposed by the landowner) is either: knock off some mineral to put anchors in and make it safer, or: no-one can legally visit it ever again. If it had been stal rather than fluorite, no doubt we would have tried every option to avoid damaging it, but why is 100,000 years 'more important' than 300 million years? If there were no other option, I would still have knocked it off to get an anchor in.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
One of my favourite bits of 'flowstone' is this one - a 'barrage' of ochre-stained something or other, emanating from what I assume to be a land drain into the former mill-pool at the site of Moscar Wheel in Sheffield. It's on the far side and unreachable without a boat, or swimming. This is coming from sandstone and shale with probable small coal and ganister seams nearby, so it's unlikely to be genuine tufa but it's well over 2 metres high and a wonderful thing, and is the only one I know of around these parts. The guy who told me about it originally was convinced that there must be caves nearby, even though geologically it should be 'impossible'. It rarely stops flowing completely, even in drought
 

Attachments

  • _IGP1645_sm.jpg
    _IGP1645_sm.jpg
    365.5 KB · Views: 177

Kenilworth

New member
Speleothems are, from a practical realistic human standpoint, first an aesthetic resource. As a distant second they are a scientific resource. Conservation is the protection of things of value from waste. Thus preservation by means of absolute avoidance is the opposite of conservation. Taping is often the opposite of conservation. Careful, thoughtful, appreciative use the only way that we young puny creatures can honor the old world around and under us. So TOR is correct, many cavers are careless glory-hounds, and it is usually easy to recognize them. On the other hand, as has been hinted at already, there can be no right objection to careful, thoughtful, appreciative use that includes inevitable destruction. There is no authority by which we can be universally judged on these matters.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Yes or No ?

(Taken from a  Facebook group called  "Abandoned Beauties"- Apparently within a silver mine in Spain)

 

Attachments

  • crystal cave.png
    crystal cave.png
    454.4 KB · Views: 183

Speleotron

Member
I think that's fine. His clothes are clean and he's taken his boots off, and it looks like the crystals are pretty solid.
 

JoshW

Well-known member
Ian Adams said:
Yes or No ?

(Taken from a  Facebook group called  "Abandoned Beauties"- Apparently within a silver mine in Spain)

it's Pulpi's Geode in Spain, and I think is from a lead mine rather than silver mine (to be pedantic).

Seen quite a few pictures like this in it before - they pop up every now and again
 

mikem

Well-known member
& accused of being all sorts of crystal, but apparently it's selenite. (Lead & silver are often found together, so can just depend on which is more valuable at the time ...)
 

Leclused

Active member
You can do  VR visit to this geode too :)  So no need to get in

A demo clip about it

https://youtu.be/dmqsJR51nZo
 

mrodoc

Well-known member
Ian Adams said:
Yes or No ?

(Taken from a  Facebook group called  "Abandoned Beauties"- Apparently within a silver mine in Spain)
could be a bit  uncomfortable though ;)
 
Top