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Walrus
Guest
graham said:
I suppose the way to find out if that statement is correct would be to do one by hand and one by computer then see if you can tell which is which. (yes, I'm a computer geek).
I suppose the way to find out if that statement is correct would be to do one by hand and one by computer then see if you can tell which is which. (yes, I'm a computer geek).
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emgee
Guest
The Turing Test applied to caving interesting.
axbridgecaver
Member
Walrus said:
I have used both methods - that's why I use hand plotting.
axbridgecaver
Member
c**tplaces said:
Free most evenings except Wednedays (digging night and that is sacred). Next week I am showing visitors around cave sites so evenings may be taken up - but week after 9 - 12 April free.
SamT
Moderator
With regards hand drawing the final plot. John beck uses AutoCad, something I've used in the past and have tinkered with the bagshawe survey using it.
Its actually quite straight forward to plot survey lines - and you end up with a 3d rotatable wire frame - you can then just 'draw' your cave detail on a seperate layer.
Not sure if the Peak Cavern survey is the same - though I suspect it is.
Im sure most people would agreee that the Peak and Bagshawe surveys are pretty good, with a 'pleasing' result.
Not used survex though.
Its actually quite straight forward to plot survey lines - and you end up with a 3d rotatable wire frame - you can then just 'draw' your cave detail on a seperate layer.
Not sure if the Peak Cavern survey is the same - though I suspect it is.
Im sure most people would agreee that the Peak and Bagshawe surveys are pretty good, with a 'pleasing' result.
Not used survex though.
graham
New member
Sam
What you describe is something that I would describe as hand-drawing the final stage (though I am not sure whether Axbridgecaver would).
These things are never clear-cut, however, and Peak is a good example. The thing is that in long and complex systems, new extensions, especailly ones that add new closed loops through previously known passages (or across the surface) do not just add to the survey but also distort it. Thus the previous drawing can be made redundant. For this reason, many long and "active" caves (in the sense of ongoing exploration) are frequently presented just by what can be generated by the computer.
What is needed, in my opinion, and has not been addressed by the software pilots that we have is an output file, like a survex plot file, which has additional layers on which the drawing and labelling can be put, as you say John Beck does, but which remain linked back to the data files, so that a modified plot can be dropped onto the "current" drawing (probably with a colour change to indicate changes) so that only minimal changes to drawing and labelling need to be undertaken to keep the main drawing up to date.
Of course different layers could be used for an "overall view" and "close ups" and other variations are possible, and I suspect that this approach might be more fruitful in many cases than current attempst to get the computer to do all the drawing.
Of course I just have the ideas, it's up to the geeks to make 'em work.
What you describe is something that I would describe as hand-drawing the final stage (though I am not sure whether Axbridgecaver would).
These things are never clear-cut, however, and Peak is a good example. The thing is that in long and complex systems, new extensions, especailly ones that add new closed loops through previously known passages (or across the surface) do not just add to the survey but also distort it. Thus the previous drawing can be made redundant. For this reason, many long and "active" caves (in the sense of ongoing exploration) are frequently presented just by what can be generated by the computer.
What is needed, in my opinion, and has not been addressed by the software pilots that we have is an output file, like a survex plot file, which has additional layers on which the drawing and labelling can be put, as you say John Beck does, but which remain linked back to the data files, so that a modified plot can be dropped onto the "current" drawing (probably with a colour change to indicate changes) so that only minimal changes to drawing and labelling need to be undertaken to keep the main drawing up to date.
Of course different layers could be used for an "overall view" and "close ups" and other variations are possible, and I suspect that this approach might be more fruitful in many cases than current attempst to get the computer to do all the drawing.
Of course I just have the ideas, it's up to the geeks to make 'em work.
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Walrus
Guest
Sounds very similar to a lot of 3 dimensional imaging software that can take a whole image and show just blood vessels, lymph nodes, skeleton etc. Unfortunately most of it is quite high-end stuff, expensive & propriatory. But I work for a medical imaging company so I'll see what and if something could be used or adapted (if its available) for surveys.
graham
New member
Walrus:
Is it possible, do you think, to generate a single layer for something like a psd file that can then replace a previous layer in a pre-existing file?
or possibly generate an additional layer, rather than a replacement. (then when one is certain of its placement, the old layer could be turned off or deleted to choice)?
I don't see why this shouldn't be possible, as it's simply (simply, ha, what do I know) the same as converting a survex plot file to a pdf & then pasting that pdf as an additional layer of a psd file.
Is it possible, do you think, to generate a single layer for something like a psd file that can then replace a previous layer in a pre-existing file?
or possibly generate an additional layer, rather than a replacement. (then when one is certain of its placement, the old layer could be turned off or deleted to choice)?
I don't see why this shouldn't be possible, as it's simply (simply, ha, what do I know) the same as converting a survex plot file to a pdf & then pasting that pdf as an additional layer of a psd file.
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Walrus
Guest
In principal, yes. Using CAD you can create a drawing using layers. Then, for example, copy & paste your drawing to a new layer, correct/change it, view both layers together (overlaid) then change the new layer to the same as the old one which will overwrite it. NP in 2D but not tried it in 3D. Will test it over the weekend and let you know if it works.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Cave surveying is great fun and really exciting; drawing the final survey is even more exciting and enjoyable.
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darkplaces
Guest
If I wasn't busy surveying something I could busy myself with pulling gates off something. :tease:cap 'n chris said:Cave surveying is great fun and really exciting; drawing the final survey is even more exciting and enjoyable.
Darn Mr Axbridge Wednesday is the very night I was gona ask, it may all be over by the week after. Mind you the location is as always with the c**tplaces lot a bit 'iffy' :
Its only trespass, what fresh looking hole officer :-[
axbridgecaver
Member
c**tplaces said:If I wasn't busy surveying something I could busy myself with pulling gates off something. :tease:cap 'n chris said:Cave surveying is great fun and really exciting; drawing the final survey is even more exciting and enjoyable.
Darn Mr Axbridge Wednesday is the very night I was gona ask, it may all be over by the week after. Mind you the location is as always with the c**tplaces lot a bit 'iffy' :
That's always the way - why don't you get your friends together and we can survey a bit of Swan - just as a taster . I could bring my laptop to the pub after and also generate a computer survey!!!! A hand plot takes slightly longer.
Robert Scott
Member
I suppose she couldn’t she stand the suspense of listening to somebody who didn’t know whether they “loiked cooorffee” in a cake although they did think that they “loiked chaaarclate” in a cake.menacer said:You Git you already know the answer to that one...Les W said:
Les W
Active member
What?Robert Scott said:I suppose she couldn’t she stand the suspense of listening to somebody who didn’t know whether they “loiked cooorffee” in a cake although they did think that they “loiked chaaarclate” in a cake.menacer said:You Git you already know the answer to that one...Les W said:
I'm sorry, I don't understand this.
