ICO view on permission to send newsletters from BCA
- Thread starter alastairgott
- Start date
NewStuff
New member
I suspect it's a few, not the majority. Problem is, those few cast a bad light on those who are intrerested in running things in the members interests, and not bolstering an ego. Unless you've taken a close interest in the antics happening over the last few years, it's not immediately obvious that this is the case. It looks like boards or commitees that I dare say many of us have experienced in other, non-caving, walks of life, where you are a minion and your opinion doesn't matter.mikem said:
nearlywhite
Active member
I think this thread makes the BCA council meetings look pretty good now
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
For reasons I won't bore people with, I was looking at the privacy policy of https://www.calor.co.uk/shop/communityfund and found
The Promoter will use personal data for the following purposes:
So whilst Andrewmc may think it is a cheap trick; I suggest including something along the lines of "communications about BCA's and BCRA's activities" in the BCA privacy policy would pass muster.
Indeed if people like it, Alastair could go and ask the ICO what they think to provide reassurance.
The Promoter will use personal data for the following purposes:
- administering the Fund, application, voting and award processes;
- registering accounts on our website;
- to verify identity and account registrations and to prevent duplicate accounts;
- communications and notifications about the Fund with registered applicants and voters;
- to prevent potential fraud or any other misuse of the Fund or Calor?s website;
- communications about Community fund activity;
- communications about Calor news and offers if a user has opted in; and
- audience and project profile analysis to help improve and promote the fund in the future
So whilst Andrewmc may think it is a cheap trick; I suggest including something along the lines of "communications about BCA's and BCRA's activities" in the BCA privacy policy would pass muster.
Indeed if people like it, Alastair could go and ask the ICO what they think to provide reassurance.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I should probably have been a bit clearer... the following is of course just my opinion.
Consent has to be freely given. It can't be made a condition of a service or purchase if that service or purchase can be delivered or made without that consent being given. You can't, for example, require that customers sign up for your mailing list as a condition of buying a TV where that TV can easily be delivered without signing you up for the mailing list.
?Consent is presumed not to be freely given? if the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is dependent on the consent despite such consent not being necessary for such performance.? (a quote in the ICO guidelines from 'Recital 43', whatever that is)
Consequently you can't demand consent for things that BCA members don't need to have in order for BCA membership to be delivered.
The flip side of that is that you don't need to ask consent for those things that BCA members do have to have (such as transactional emails) or would legitimately expect to receive (non-marketing informational emails e.g. access issue emails).
The BCA should also (and does) have a privacy policy which explains what data is being processed and why. You don't have to agree to that privacy policy in a contractual way; either the processing is allowed and valid or it isn't (and is illegal). The BCA privacy policy can (by its own terms) be changed at any time.
The important detail in the Calor privacy policy (which they could also change at any time, I suspect) is that:
a) 'communications about Community fund activity' (i.e. transactional and informational communications under the Legal and Legitimate arguments) don't require consent, and
b) 'communications about Calor news and offers if a user has opted in' does require consent (because it is marketing).
We should not be sending unconsented marketing; everyone (well most people ) are agreed on that. The privacy policy can easily be changed to tweak the wording relating to emailing news to reflect the law (which is that you _can_ send news and information provided it is not marketing including furthering the aims and objectives of the BCA). We just need to make sure the newsletter doesn't contain marketing (or there is a 'censored' version).
We could have a consented mail list for campaigning emails, or just an 'uncensored' newsletter containing all sorts of political opinions
The point is that there is at least some good stuff we can send out, so we should do everything that we are allowed to to send it out!
Consent has to be freely given. It can't be made a condition of a service or purchase if that service or purchase can be delivered or made without that consent being given. You can't, for example, require that customers sign up for your mailing list as a condition of buying a TV where that TV can easily be delivered without signing you up for the mailing list.
?Consent is presumed not to be freely given? if the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is dependent on the consent despite such consent not being necessary for such performance.? (a quote in the ICO guidelines from 'Recital 43', whatever that is)
Consequently you can't demand consent for things that BCA members don't need to have in order for BCA membership to be delivered.
The flip side of that is that you don't need to ask consent for those things that BCA members do have to have (such as transactional emails) or would legitimately expect to receive (non-marketing informational emails e.g. access issue emails).
The BCA should also (and does) have a privacy policy which explains what data is being processed and why. You don't have to agree to that privacy policy in a contractual way; either the processing is allowed and valid or it isn't (and is illegal). The BCA privacy policy can (by its own terms) be changed at any time.
The important detail in the Calor privacy policy (which they could also change at any time, I suspect) is that:
a) 'communications about Community fund activity' (i.e. transactional and informational communications under the Legal and Legitimate arguments) don't require consent, and
b) 'communications about Calor news and offers if a user has opted in' does require consent (because it is marketing).
We should not be sending unconsented marketing; everyone (well most people
) are agreed on that. The privacy policy can easily be changed to tweak the wording relating to emailing news to reflect the law (which is that you _can_ send news and information provided it is not marketing including furthering the aims and objectives of the BCA). We just need to make sure the newsletter doesn't contain marketing (or there is a 'censored' version).We could have a consented mail list for campaigning emails, or just an 'uncensored' newsletter containing all sorts of political opinions
The point is that there is at least some good stuff we can send out, so we should do everything that we are allowed to to send it out!
Much here seems to hinge on whether the BCA newsletter is marketing or not. Marketing in terms of data protection, according to one post above, is not defined. That must lead to some flexibility in interpretation of the term. A google dictionary definition states; marketing - noun - the action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising.
Anyway lets take a look at the January 2019 BCA newsletter. It starts with an editorial followed by;
The Chairmans piece
AGM info
Vision & Reform - info and results from two questionnaires
Info about the Merdeka award
CNCC news - mostly on access
Cave fiction roundup - a review of cave related books
BCA caving insurance - inf on member benefit
News on possible future cave expedition insurance
CRoW and BMC - update and news on a meeting
Vision and reform - two stories on student assignments related to caving promotion
Resignation letter of P&I officer
I think it would be easy to defend this newsletter against any accusations of marketing. Or if there are concerns for the editor to keep the future content even more marketing free.
Anyway lets take a look at the January 2019 BCA newsletter. It starts with an editorial followed by;
The Chairmans piece
AGM info
Vision & Reform - info and results from two questionnaires
Info about the Merdeka award
CNCC news - mostly on access
Cave fiction roundup - a review of cave related books
BCA caving insurance - inf on member benefit
News on possible future cave expedition insurance
CRoW and BMC - update and news on a meeting
Vision and reform - two stories on student assignments related to caving promotion
Resignation letter of P&I officer
I think it would be easy to defend this newsletter against any accusations of marketing. Or if there are concerns for the editor to keep the future content even more marketing free.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
I had reason to complain to the ICO over the Royal Mail using opt out boxes and have just got an answer. In brief I quote:
"Pre-ticked consent boxes are banned under the GDPR. Whilst it does not specifically ban opt-out boxes, in our view these are essentially the same as pre-ticked boxes and are unlikely to comply with the GDPR?s requirements for consent... However, there is a limited exception to the requirement for specific consent under PECR, known as the soft opt-in. This means organisations can send marketing texts or emails if:
? they have obtained the contact details in the course of a sale (or negotiations for a sale) of a product or service to that person;
? they are only marketing their own similar products or services; and
? they gave the person a simple opportunity to refuse or opt out of the marketing, both when first collecting the details and in every message after that."
The equivalence of the "a sale" with 'joining BCA' seems not unreasonable if one has to say that "BCA is marketing itself" and the other two conditions can easily be complied with in the newsletter.
"Pre-ticked consent boxes are banned under the GDPR. Whilst it does not specifically ban opt-out boxes, in our view these are essentially the same as pre-ticked boxes and are unlikely to comply with the GDPR?s requirements for consent... However, there is a limited exception to the requirement for specific consent under PECR, known as the soft opt-in. This means organisations can send marketing texts or emails if:
? they have obtained the contact details in the course of a sale (or negotiations for a sale) of a product or service to that person;
? they are only marketing their own similar products or services; and
? they gave the person a simple opportunity to refuse or opt out of the marketing, both when first collecting the details and in every message after that."
The equivalence of the "a sale" with 'joining BCA' seems not unreasonable if one has to say that "BCA is marketing itself" and the other two conditions can easily be complied with in the newsletter.
I've reason to have the personal phone number of an IC lead case officer.
I thought I would phone up and enquire about the BCA newsletter myself as this debate seems to be going round in circles with some folk determined to make it more difficult than it needs to be. My contact could not see any reason why we should not send our newsletter out to our email list as long as we were not disclosing personal data in doing so. We should have an unsubscribe option and we should make it clear that members will receive a newsletter as part of membership. The type of news and information in our newsletter is not considered marketing. In short they could really see no reason that if a complaint was made that it would be upheld. So that is from the horses mouth.
I expect that how you ask the question may depend on what answer you get but, again, it is worth stating that even if there was an issue that had not been considered the ICO would suggest a plan of corrective action long before taking any punitive action themselves.
I thought I would phone up and enquire about the BCA newsletter myself as this debate seems to be going round in circles with some folk determined to make it more difficult than it needs to be. My contact could not see any reason why we should not send our newsletter out to our email list as long as we were not disclosing personal data in doing so. We should have an unsubscribe option and we should make it clear that members will receive a newsletter as part of membership. The type of news and information in our newsletter is not considered marketing. In short they could really see no reason that if a complaint was made that it would be upheld. So that is from the horses mouth.
I expect that how you ask the question may depend on what answer you get but, again, it is worth stating that even if there was an issue that had not been considered the ICO would suggest a plan of corrective action long before taking any punitive action themselves.
Cookie
New member
Can we have it in writing please? At the beginning of this thread we do have it in writing and it contradicts what you are saying.
I have proposed a perfectly workable solution however it needs some programming effort to deliver. You still need a system to track and record peoples opt-ins, or opt outs under the send the Newsletter and be dammed option.
If you can think of a manual system or provide a programmer to deliver a working system now, be my guest.
Otherwise it is a question of resources and priorities.
I have proposed a perfectly workable solution however it needs some programming effort to deliver. You still need a system to track and record peoples opt-ins, or opt outs under the send the Newsletter and be dammed option.
If you can think of a manual system or provide a programmer to deliver a working system now, be my guest.
Otherwise it is a question of resources and priorities.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
You said Cookie The other option is to exercise BCA's rights under the soft opt-in. That allows, as part of the joining/renewal process, BCA to send an email to ask the question.
The fascinating point of the ICO response is that no such opt in question need be asked the first time around. It only requires that one gives them the right to say no / opt out on every occasion, including the first. (If that was what you meant, then I apologise but your cited statement was not clear enough; I read it as an opt in requiring a positive reply.)
Incorporating the opt out into the joining process is simple. What is more complex is incorporating it into the renewal process given that requires clubs to forward the material and then for BCA to get the response (or a copy via the club).
I note there is a motion for a change to the constitution at the AGM. Perhaps the simplest option is to include a statement with the opt out option along with the material sent out if the change passes the meeting.
I wonder if the Chair of the AGM will accept such a proposal as AoB; assuming the constitutional motion is passed.
The fascinating point of the ICO response is that no such opt in question need be asked the first time around. It only requires that one gives them the right to say no / opt out on every occasion, including the first. (If that was what you meant, then I apologise but your cited statement was not clear enough; I read it as an opt in requiring a positive reply.)
Incorporating the opt out into the joining process is simple. What is more complex is incorporating it into the renewal process given that requires clubs to forward the material and then for BCA to get the response (or a copy via the club).
I note there is a motion for a change to the constitution at the AGM. Perhaps the simplest option is to include a statement with the opt out option along with the material sent out if the change passes the meeting.
I wonder if the Chair of the AGM will accept such a proposal as AoB; assuming the constitutional motion is passed.
Cookie
New member
Absolutely. A useful clarification.
My plan was to automatically send out an email to each CIM as their joining/renewal reaches the BCA-Online database (requires a bit of programming effort). That email would welcome them/ thank them for rejoining and explain the services BCA offers to its members. As part of that there would be a button. Clicking the button would opt the member out of the Newsletter (a bit more programming effort).
My plan was to automatically send out an email to each CIM as their joining/renewal reaches the BCA-Online database (requires a bit of programming effort). That email would welcome them/ thank them for rejoining and explain the services BCA offers to its members. As part of that there would be a button. Clicking the button would opt the member out of the Newsletter (a bit more programming effort).
Seems simple to me.
I belong to several organisations which send me emailed Newsletters and I don't recall them ever asking me whether I wished them to do so - all have switched to using this option to replace their paper magazines which were previously sent out to all their members. All these organisations include an unsubscribe box at the end of each Newsletter so I can, if I wish to, opt for them to be discontinued.
Attaching Cookie's suggested email to each CIM renewal would seem to be the best way to do this. All it requires now is that Clubs supply their members' email addresses when they send in the club's CIM renewals list. I am aware that currently some clubs do not do this and we would want all CIMs to be aware of the facility to receive the Newsletter if they want it. Hence it would seem worth while to have some kind of "advertising" of this fact (that an emailed Newsletter is available to all members who have supplied their email address), and to ensure that this "advertising" is brought to individual CIM's attention by means other than email. Don't know how you do this but it can't be beyond someone's ingenuity.
I belong to several organisations which send me emailed Newsletters and I don't recall them ever asking me whether I wished them to do so - all have switched to using this option to replace their paper magazines which were previously sent out to all their members. All these organisations include an unsubscribe box at the end of each Newsletter so I can, if I wish to, opt for them to be discontinued.
Attaching Cookie's suggested email to each CIM renewal would seem to be the best way to do this. All it requires now is that Clubs supply their members' email addresses when they send in the club's CIM renewals list. I am aware that currently some clubs do not do this and we would want all CIMs to be aware of the facility to receive the Newsletter if they want it. Hence it would seem worth while to have some kind of "advertising" of this fact (that an emailed Newsletter is available to all members who have supplied their email address), and to ensure that this "advertising" is brought to individual CIM's attention by means other than email. Don't know how you do this but it can't be beyond someone's ingenuity.
Cookie
New member
Bob, no, you can't take that as agreement with issuing a statement ... It could well be a useful opportunity to contact all BCA members but it depends what is in the statement.
I'll point out the rules for post are far less onerous compared to electronic communication (emails, txt).
What is the point of offering an opt-out from electronic communication to those who've not supplied an email address?
I'll point out the rules for post are far less onerous compared to electronic communication (emails, txt).
What is the point of offering an opt-out from electronic communication to those who've not supplied an email address?
Cookie
New member
It is fairly simple. But you need a system in place to track the opt-outs. Without that in place you can't proceed. That is the stumbling block.
We do have a system that tracks opt-ins, i.e registering with BCA-Online, but that require action on the members' part.
I agree with advertising that members should supply their email address but it's not like we haven't tried already.
We do have a system that tracks opt-ins, i.e registering with BCA-Online, but that require action on the members' part.
I agree with advertising that members should supply their email address but it's not like we haven't tried already.
That seems to be part of the problem. There are many CIMs who would be quite willing for their email address to be supplied to BCA for the purposes of voting and receiving a Newsletter. However, if the Club itself has a policy of not doing so, or has never asked its members if it may do so, then you won't get them.
That's what I meant by my suggestion of trying to "advertise", in ways other than by email, that the facility is available to any BCA CIM who wants it.
Incidentally, this also creates a potential problem for the idea of electronic voting - what proportion of your members do you actually have emails for so that you can implement this? Hasten to add that I don't know the answer to this one.
That's what I meant by my suggestion of trying to "advertise", in ways other than by email, that the facility is available to any BCA CIM who wants it.
Incidentally, this also creates a potential problem for the idea of electronic voting - what proportion of your members do you actually have emails for so that you can implement this? Hasten to add that I don't know the answer to this one.
