ICO view on permission to send newsletters from BCA

[andrewmcleod]

Club members aren't just joining their clubs; they are also joining the BCA. It is entirely reasonable to require clubs to at least request, using a standard form, member details such as email. If the member refuses, that's fine (for things like email, not name and probably address).

A standard form also ensures the BCA has ticked the relevant data protection rules off; how do the BCA know that club members have been given the proper information about how their data will be used?

 

[2xw]

Just scrap the CIM membership and be done with it.

 

[mikem]

That would also scrap the BCA...

 

[Jenny P]

That would also scrap the BCA...

Which would also scrap our insurance as well.

 

[2xw]

That would also scrap the BCA...

Ya know, apart from all the other membership categories.

This attitude of no CIM = no BCA ably demonstrates the bending over backwards the BCA does to accommodate this membership categories. Move to a system of only "members" and that's it - they all provide their email and opt in (or don't) when they buy membership, none of this lazy club secretary tripe.

This might mean an extra hour of work for a club secretary, which is better than putting all those hours on one BCA volunteer, which is not efficient. Some are willing to put 100s to thousands of hours in, but this, I suspect, is not a renewable resource.

 

[Cookie]

none of this lazy club secretary tripe.

Who said the club secs. were lazy?

BCA already asks quite a bit of them so they are certainly not lazy.

 

[2xw]

I just did. See my post immediately preceding your reply.

 

[mikem]

The BCA is already tiny at 6OOO members, it probably won't be viable if you remove CIMs, as nowhere near all of them would rejoin as DIMs.

 

[Madness]

The BCA is already tiny at 6OOO members, it probably won't be viable if you remove CIMs, as nowhere near all of them would rejoin as DIMs.

They would if they wanted insurance.

 

[2xw]

Here's my ideal world:

You join the BCA. On a direct debit if you want so you don't have to do it every year. There's no multiple memberships, you can get extras/discounts etc at online checkout (or get a bill and send whatever other payment you wanna use).
You put your details in. It's rigid so you can only put in your postcode one way (so someone doesn't have to spend hours every year manually correcting them)
You consent to whether you want a newsletter, and put in your email so you can vote. You are informed that if you don't have an email you can vote by post.
You have an online login that works, where you can vote on proposals, or, if so inclined, never look at it again (or cancel your membership)
Your club secretary says "are you a BCA member"
You say yes and give them your number.
The secretary says "okay thanks" and keeps a list of them and sends the numbers to the BCA. They only have to do this once if the person stays a member and then only have to send new members numbers once a year. This actually saves the club secretaries a lot of work.

Preferably this would all involve a totally revamped and modern website and payment system, accompanied by an entirely new membership database as the current one is fucked. Imagine that, actually being able to communicate (and receive communication!) from your members

 

[mikem]

Especially once the subs have doubled to reimburse for lost revenue & the increase per person in insurance...

There are plenty of cavers who never go in caves where they are required to show evidence of cover.

 

[2xw]

Especially once the subs have doubled to reimburse for lost revenue & the increase per person in insurance...

I'm not sure how you're saying this would occur?

 

[mikem]

A drop in membership would not result in an equal reduction in the premium.

 

[2xw]

A drop in membership would not result in an equal reduction in the premium.

Nobody mentioned a drop in membership?

You think making the BCA easier to join would result in a drop in membership?

 

[andrewmcleod]

Nothing to do with the original topic of this thread, of course, but...

An idea I had this morning. When you join a club, you would have two routes:

a) you fill in a membership form. The bottom 5cm of this membership form are of a standard form supplied by the BCA which is your 'BCA membership form'. This requests all the information the BCA need/want and gives the usual GDPR information stuff. Club secretaries have to post these (or scan and email them) to the BCA to register their members.

b) you supply an email address to your club. They go on the 'club management' portal on the BCA website, enter your email address and tick which membership category you are applying for, and then you get sent an email invitation to join both your club (using a form they could minimally design) AND the BCA. This could also include payment options for clubs (e.g. the BCA takes the money by direct debit and sends it to clubs. If you are already a BCA member, then obviously the system knows this from your email address (if you've given your current BCA registered email, otherwise you enter your BCA number). The BCA providing a service for clubs instead of making it harder for them to get new members...

No constitutional changes required, no rule changes, no policy changes - the BCA gets the information it wants. It's just an admin problem.
Solution b) would require some not inconsiderable (presumably paid) software development, however.

 

[nearlywhite]

A drop in membership would not result in an equal reduction in the premium.

You wouldn't see a drop in membership. What about all the clubs that don't end up joining due to the excessive hassle of being a club secretary? And before the conjecture argument is used, that is precisely what is being asserted that there would be a drop if the membership categories were simplified.

I don't see why a club secretary couldn't set up a bca online account for their club members, for those that are technophobic.

 

[droid]

Seems to me that several workable solutions to the communication problem have been suggested, only to be shot down in flames. Presumably these solutions will be discussed at the AGM.

Just remember: KISS.

Some people seem to revel in complexity and opacity. Not needed in such a small specialist organisation.

Just my opinion.

 

[mikem]

Nobody mentioned a drop in membership?

You think making the BCA easier to join would result in a drop in membership?

I think you'll find I did. BCA is easy to join for club members, they don't currently have any choice if joining a BCA club. If they had to do it separately I don't think so many would bother.

 

[2xw]

Nobody mentioned a drop in membership?

You think making the BCA easier to join would result in a drop in membership?

I think you'll find I did. BCA is easy to join for club members, they don't currently have any choice if joining a BCA club. If they had to do it separately I don't think so many would bother.

BCA clubs need their members to be members of the BCA and I don't see this changing.

 

[Madness]

Nobody mentioned a drop in membership?

You think making the BCA easier to join would result in a drop in membership?

I think you'll find I did. BCA is easy to join for club members, they don't currently have any choice if joining a BCA club. If they had to do it separately I don't think so many would bother.

To an extent you are correct. Unless you are 'required' to join when joining your local caving club or unless you need liability insurance, you probably wouldn't bother joining.

There's an underlying perception that other than supplying liability insurance, there's little point to joining the BCA. This is one of the BCA's biggest problems, and poor communication is at the route of this problem.