If CRoW applies to caving - some comments

martinm

New member
bograt said:
kay said:
jasonbirder said:
While it shouldn't be the case...the BCA stating it assumes caving is covered by CRoW and strongly supports that MAY influence the final decision...

I thought the BCA's opinion was that it currently has no stance on CRoW?

You are right Kay, the only reference to CRoW recently by BCA is to refer it to the C&A committee who have not yet met on the subject.

Yep, it's on the agenda to be discussed.  :) I know for a fact that there are individuals within BCA with differing views on this. (Ie:- pro or against.) But none on the C&A committee as far as I am aware, so hopefully we will be able to come up with a independent stance that BCA as a whole will have to accept. (I think!)

Also don't forget that the BCA C&A officer/convener also works for NE and I also know that a senior person at NE will be made aware of the results in due course by BCA as a national body.

Fingers crossed!

 

Peter Burgess

New member
Oceanrower said:
Apparently, according to the CSCC, I'm against CROW access.

Though I don't remember either of the clubs I belong to asking me.........
Apparently you have now received the request from me for your view. Your avatar does not look much like any of the three members who have responded - can I take your stated opinion on here as your reply? Or have you responded by email? Or on the WCMS forum? Only if by some miracle I get a significant number of replies how do I know if you haven't responded twice somehow?
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I got the request for our view from CCC via a CCC officer who happens to be a WCMS member - I took it more as a reminder to do something, but I was never directly asked in any kind of circular. Of course, it might be that the actual request was directed at our secretary. I don't know. However, an email went out yesterday (Friday) within minutes of the reminder. I am also now aware of the advice to contact reps etc that was posted up on this forum earlier. However, it passed me by, what will the dilution of the important posts with all the utter drivel that came with it. Our members are pretty good at responding to emails that are of interest to them, so if I don't get many replies, I can make a reasonable assumption on their level of interest in this matter. But I live in hope (not the place in Derbyshire).

Oceanrower - thanks. Please PM me - nothing has arrived.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Some people have been pressing me for access to the 'instructions'.  I am offering this statement to help them understand the context of what already is in the public domain with what is not.

My interest in this subject started back at the CNCC AGM when Tim made the curious statement that Natural England had declared caving on the surface was an open air recreation.  I did a fair amount of research into CRoW including using legal data bases to search for meanings of words and previous cases using these words.  By late May I had built up a large 13 page document detailing my thoughts, though several areas relating to consultation papers and debates were incomplete as I had not obtained copies of them then.

Around that time I then produced a document which can be seen as Appendix 1 to the CRoW Working Group report to the BCA AGM, read pages 22 to 27 in the Officers Reports at http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:documents:general_meetings:agm_reports_2014.pdf which was a reduced (13 to 6 pages) version of my main work.  (I did edit out a number of items, including a discussion about open air cremations for example, see http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/978.html if you are that intrigued.  It concluded that one could design a building which was open to the air as is required by a Hindu burial belief!)  I then got drawn into producing the 'instructions' and never got around to completing my May document. 

I have indicated elsewhere that we are holding back on releasing the 'instructions' until we have sought legal advice.  But for those who would like to have an idea of what is in the 'instructions' then it comprises of an introduction and four Parts.  The introduction provides a brief history, organisation and nature of caving plus some basic statistics of the number of caves on access land.  Part 1 covers early legislation from the 19 century up to the 1939 Access to the Mountains Act.  Part 2 deals with the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act of 1949 and CRoW covering not only the parliamentary debates but also the precursor consultation papers and so forth.  Part 3 covers a detailed consideration of CRoW focusing on the meaning of the two phrases 'access land' and 'open air recreation'.  Part 4 covers material issued by Natural England and some email exchanges.  The 'instructions' only asked 'Arising from this work comes the principle question of whether the right of access as provided for in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act applies to caving'.

Much of what is in the Working Group Appendix is based on my May document and is also in the 'instructions' at Parts 3 and 4.  I will admit that the May document and the Annex is a bit light on the material in Part 4 of the 'instructions' on Natural England since much of that was informed by Tim's work.

So if you are that interested you can get an appreciation of that part of the 'instructions' covering the legal argument Parts 3 and 4 by reading Appendix 1 mentioned above.  And apologies to those of you who have already done so. 

Work on the parliamentary debates was done in a hurry and only documented as full copies of the debates and 2 documents providing the internet links for each debate.  PM me with your email address if you want a copy of the links.  Various quotes were used in the 'instructions'.  The most significant quote from all the debates has already been quoted in discussion on this forum at http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=16816.msg221779#msg221779.  I would recommend reading that part of the debate which covers the proposed amendment which sought to define open air recreation and the Minister's response.

I have thought about bringing up to date my May document.  There are two problems.  The first is whether I should up date the May document or issue it with known errors which I don't have the time to correct.  The second is the May document contains very little of the results of the study of the parliamentary debates.  So I conclude I am reluctant to issue it.
 

bograt

Active member
Thanks for that Bob,I hope it will go some way to pacify the dissenters.

I would, however, like to take this opportunity to emphasise that anyone wishing to make a relevant comment on the debate should make their contribution to their regional representative NOW, as the national committee meeting to decide policy is imminent. (16th August, next Saturday!)
 

bograt

Active member
Thaks for that Bob,
                            Must check who's carrying the vote for us,also would encourage other folk to do the same!.
 

martinm

New member
bograt said:
Thaks for that Bob,
                            Must check who's carrying the vote for us,also would encourage other folk to do the same!.

Me and Pete Mellors are the DCAs reps. I think we are now pretty much in agreement on policy. Andrew now has the DCA report to the C&A meeting.
 

bograt

Active member
mmilner said:
bograt said:
Thaks for that Bob,
                            Must check who's carrying the vote for us,also would encourage other folk to do the same!.

Me and Pete Mellors are the DCAs reps. I think we are now pretty much in agreement on policy. Andrew now has the DCA report to the C&A meeting.

Thanks Mel, Know I can depend upon our reps, just e-mailed Andrew to confirm who'se carrying the vote, these things need to be kept transparent (y)

CC'd to you and Pete.
 

damian

Active member
Bob Mehew said:
It has been pointed out to me that the original document linked above did not make it as clear as it could have done that the contributions are from individuals and, therefore, not necessarily the views or opinions of BCA. I have now amended the document to reflect this and apologise for any potential confusion.
 

graham

New member
I note that further submissions continue to be added to the document linked to by Bob, above. So if you have downloaded a version, you'll need to do it again! I suspect that more will continue to be added up until the weekend.

It is worth noting, also, that additions are not all being made at the end of the document, so just because your last page is the same, doesn't mean that other bits won't have been missed.
 

damian

Active member
graham said:
I note that further submissions continue to be added to the document linked to by Bob, above. So if you have downloaded a version, you'll need to do it again! I suspect that more will continue to be added up until the weekend.

It is worth noting, also, that additions are not all being made at the end of the document, so just because your last page is the same, doesn't mean that other bits won't have been missed.
Yep - something I try to avoid doing because I know of the difficulties it can cause people. Mindful of this, the final version of the document is the one that was uploaded a few minutes ago. This latest version contains a cover page, plus a further submission by Linda Wilson, and submissions from the CDG and RFDCC.

Any further last-minute submissions to Andrew Hinde will appear in a separate document published tomorrow evening and also linked from here.
 

damian

Active member
Bottlebank said:
It doesn't seem to have changed?
The new version has 58 pages. At the risk of being a computer geek, have you tried pressing F5 to refresh the page on the website before clicking on the download? I think computers try to be clever and revert to a saved version of a link rather than actual download it each time ... certainly mine was doing that earlier.
 

damian

Active member
damian said:
Any further last-minute submissions to Andrew Hinde will appear in a separate document published tomorrow evening and also linked from here.
Now done.

Volume 1 can be downloaded from here.
Volume 2 from here.
 

damian

Active member
Unbelievably the draft Minutes of Saturday's meeting are already available and have been published on the BCA website. (Thanks to all those who have proof-read etc at amazing speed!)
 

Peter Burgess

New member
NAMHO (JH): Is concerned about the mention of mines in the QC?s opinion, as they are not relevant at
all. NAMHO has no stance on CRoW provided access to mines is excluded. (Post-Meeting Note: it appears
that access to mines may well be included in CRoW legislation after all. This is being followed up.)

Puts a whole new complexion on the issue.  :doubt:
 
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