Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?

[bograt]

I am not going to discuss this. So you have the perfect opportunity to try to discredit what I wrote. Feel free. It doesn't change the facts at the end of the day.

Not trying to discredit anyone or anything, facts is what I'm after, and facts ain't second hand hearsay from a 'reliable source', maybe if your source were to submit his/her 5 penneth?

Well known that if a debater finds himself on the back foot he withdraws ---

I would still like to know the reason for this 'disappointment', it could reveal a hitch we are not aware of.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I am just making an important comment pertinent to the topic. If you don't want to believe what I write, that's your prerogative. Nobody here is obliged to do so, or to justify what they write. So you either think "that's interesting" or you ignore it. I didn't add the point for a discussion, but to point out something relevant. The reason for "disappointment" has been covered many times. So to raise it again has no purpose. The observation was from someone who has frequent and regular contact with an important landowner. Let's just say, disregard landowners' sensibilities and then pay the obvious consequences.

 

[Brains]

I can well understand that the owner of Drws Cefn (as an example - not guessing whom you may be referring to Peter) would be against the clarification in favour of access, but as non cavers they must speak as they find. Even if that is from an anti-caver management group that provide their main link to the caving community.
Foe every anecdote you can find one of the opposite nature. That is the way of anecdotes, and why they arent reliable as justification...

 

[Peter Burgess]

Not trying to justify anything - just pointing out that the "campaign" has the potential to really mess things up.

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

BCA, Constitutions, Extraordinary General Meetings!

Just ditch all of this sh t, get your camo gear out, go out at night whilst the landowners are watching pop-factor. All of this access bullshit is just unnecessary empire whankery and it does have the potential to have all sorts of unintended consequences.

Forget the club mentality, leave the office bullshit in the office and go caving and try not to upset anyone.

This CROW nonsense is just typical willy measuring of the worst sort.

STOP IT.

 

[droid]

Not trying to justify anything - just pointing out that the "campaign" has the potential to really mess things up.

It does.

It also has the potential to vastly improve (read 'simplify') the access process.

Which of these scenarios comes to pass will, in my opinion, depend on whether the main players are prepared to listen to and take into account ALL the views and concerns.

Because CRoW-Cautious members (and ex-members) of this forum might not be the tiny minority some would like to believe: 37% of those who voted, voted 'no'.....

 

[nearlywhite]

Not trying to justify anything - just pointing out that the "campaign" has the potential to really mess things up.

I think at this point the anti-CRoW camp is doing a really good job of trying to mess things up by spreading scare stories over a debate they've already lost. What should be happening is the caving community uniting behind this effort (most cavers ARE in favour) and people who have concerns over landowner relations come onside to try and minimise the impact of a campaign - not foretell disaster and overblow the whole thing. It's only caving and most people don't care.

 

[PeteHall]

I think at this point the anti-CRoW camp is doing a really good job of trying to mess things up by spreading scare stories over a debate they've already lost. What should be happening is the caving community uniting behind this effort (most cavers ARE in favour) and people who have concerns over landowner relations come onside to try and minimise the impact of a campaign - not foretell disaster and overblow the whole thing. It's only caving and most people don't care.

 

[droid]

By pointing out potential problems, the 'anti-CRoW' (I prefer the term 'CRoW-Cautious') camp ARE contributing.

It is the 'CRoW as Nirvana' camp that might well cock things up mightily unless a rather more judicious attitude than has been exemplified here is shown.

 

[bograt]

I have reliably heard of cave landowners being "disappointed", to put it mildly, by this "campaign".

Have you heard it from the landowner?
Has anyone asked why they are "disappointed" ?

Because of course, all landowners think the way bograt does.....

Is that sarcasm or irony?, I sometimes have difficulty differentiating, Bograt has had many years experience in 'the ways of the caver', maybe a little education of landowners into these mysteries would go a long way ?, always 'assuming' (I dislike that word) the will is there on behalf of the caving fraternity ---. He has also had over 30 years experience in 'the ways of the landowner' ---.

The reason for "disappointment" has been covered many times.

Please point me in the direction of this coverage.

I can well understand that the owner of Drws Cefn (as an example - not guessing whom you may be referring to Peter) would be against the clarification in favour of access, but as non cavers they must speak as they find. Even if that is from an anti-caver management group that provide their main link to the caving community.
Foe every anecdote you can find one of the opposite nature. That is the way of anecdotes, and why they arent reliable as justification...

Wondered how far this thread would go before DC came up, although relevant to the overall debate. I consider this to be a minor factor to the overall situation. As I understand it the landowners are fairly recent and took on the land after the CRoW act was enacted, no farming or land management activities are practiced, the landowner is acting on the advice of the established cave access body, maybe that advice is flawed?

BCA, Constitutions, Extraordinary General Meetings!

Just ditch all of this sh t, get your camo gear out, go out at night whilst the landowners are watching pop-factor. All of this access bullshit is just unnecessary empire whankery and it does have the potential to have all sorts of unintended consequences.

Forget the club mentality, leave the office bullshit in the office and go caving and try not to upset anyone.

This CROW nonsense is just typical willy measuring of the worst sort.

STOP IT.

At least one landowner is monitoring this thread and is VERY offended by the suggestion I would be watching Pop-Factor, sober up, then apologise, this is not helping---

 

[Peter Burgess]

Perhaps the pro-landowner cavers are doing their best to smooth over the damage being done to our reputation by those who care more for their "rights" than the people whose land they explore beneath. You never know. After all, who are they more likely to listen to?  And nobody is predicting "disaster" - just wanting idealists to be a bit more pragmatic and take a wider view of the consequences. Banging on about "right to trespass" or whatever, is the attitude of some and it doesn't go down well with many people.

And, the vote might have been "lost", but the debate isn't a matter for a vote, it's simply a matter of who proves to have been correct when the issue is finalised. Nobody will know that until it happens.

 

[nearlywhite]

Perhaps the pro-landowner cavers are doing their best to smooth over the damage being done to our reputation by those who care more for their "rights" than the people whose land they explore beneath. You never know. After all, who are they more likely to listen to?  And nobody is predicting "disaster" - just wanting idealists to be a bit more pragmatic and take a wider view of the consequences. Banging on about "right to trespass" or whatever, is the attitude of some and it doesn't go down well with many people.

And, the vote might have been "lost", but the debate isn't a matter for a vote, it's simply a matter of who proves to have been correct when the issue is finalised. Nobody will know that until it happens.

This response is why most people I know don't go on UK Caving.

I like the disparaging connotation that I'm an anti-landowner caver, don't care about other people's rights and will be proved wrong once a disaster hasn't occurred. You are just fuelling the flames and just trying to stir up more bad PR - after reading this if I was a landowner I wouldn't let a caver on my land regardless of the result of the clarification

 

[Peter Burgess]

I don't like being called "anti-access", or even "anti-CRoW", but I don't moan about it, and it is of no consequence anyway. It's not ME that considers others to be anti-landowner, its the landowners who don't like what they see going on who pick this up. Which is the point I was making, not having a go at others.

 

[Peter Burgess]

There are many I know who don't come here because of the aggressive nature of the Pro-CRoW camp. Some you won't see because they left voluntarily. As for some others ? If you want to see how divisive the issue has become, look no further that this forum and the number of cavers who no longer come here since this all started. But then, it's much easier to blame me I suppose.

 

[bograt]

Perhaps the pro-landowner cavers are doing their best to smooth over the damage being done to our reputation by those who care more for their "rights" than the people whose land they explore beneath. You never know. After all, who are they more likely to listen to?  And nobody is predicting "disaster" - just wanting idealists to be a bit more pragmatic and take a wider view of the consequences. Banging on about "right to trespass" or whatever, is the attitude of some and it doesn't go down well with many people.

And, the vote might have been "lost", but the debate isn't a matter for a vote, it's simply a matter of who proves to have been correct when the issue is finalised. Nobody will know that until it happens.

This response is why most people I know don't go on UK Caving.

I like the disparaging connotation that I'm an anti-landowner caver, don't care about other people's rights and will be proved wrong once a disaster hasn't occurred. You are just fuelling the flames and just trying to stir up more bad PR - after reading this if I was a landowner I wouldn't let a caver on my land regardless of the result of the clarification

Personally, I can't find a fault with Peters post, perhaps you are allowing emotions to overtake reason Nearlywhite ??

 

[danthecavingman]

I don't think it's about being pro-landowner or anti-landowner. I think it's more to do with pro or ante permits and access restrictions. Which every other bugger who wants to enjoy the outdoors doesn't need to jump through hoops for. On the high moorland access land we're talking about which is mostly sheep grazing or grouse moorland where anyone can wander as they please, why, oh why would cavers be any more disruptive or cause more damage than walkers etc....

As a caver I have always had the utmost respect for the landowners upon whose land I have caved and with the odd exception where I learnt from mistakes, have always sought permission for digging etc.

Digging and diving need to be separated from 'caving or potholing'. I don't see either of the former being covered by CROW but the latter should be no problem for anyone. And yes I agree there are some systems with entrances on CROW land which for conservation reasons should be excluded, which is entirely possible on a SSSI and I don't suspect that anyone will argue against the odd case where systems are vulnerable.

Mendip and Derbyshire will be mostly unaffected by the CROW implications on future access for cavers. South Wales and particularly the Dales are where the issues are, the Dales have long been overdue a rethink on the access to the vast grouse moors overlying much of the 3 Counties system.

I would rather that CROW rights for caving where seen as an easing of restrictions rather than a case of we're going caving and there's nothing you can do to stop us.... I don't think the majority want to stick two fingers up to the landowners, rather just be allowed to come and go as they please like the rest of Joe Public.

Just my thoughts.

We should stick together on this. I don't understand why anyone who caves wouldn't welcome greater freedom to practice their hobby where and when they want, ON CROW LAND.

Dan.

 

[Pegasus]

This response is why most people I know don't go on UK Caving.

Feel sad having read that - UKC is not just about debate on Crow 

 

[bograt]

Tend to agree with Dan, biggest hurdle is the grouse moors, where the shooting has already been disrupted by permitted walkers, etc., why should the much smaller percentage increase of cavers make any difference?, neither the grouse nor the fee paying shooters are bothered about what happens beneath their feet.

Also agree with Pegasus, those who voluntarily exclude themselves from UKC are unknowingly denying themselves a wealth of knowledge I would have died for back in the '70's --.( youngsters have it easy these days, we were 'ard then ---)

 

[Ian Adams]

Nearlywhite is completely right and I applaud his position.

Before the vote, a number of people in the ?no? camp voiced very loud concerns (I would prefer to allude to them as potential libellous) that were a ?yes? to be forthcoming then this would lead to;

Dis-respecting landowners (en masse)
Increased volumes of visitors to caves
Caves being trashed by excessive traffic
Gates being forced off
Loss of conservation concerns
Etc etc.

Suffice it to say, there was a tremendous amount of ?doom-mongering? (by a notable few).

Did any of that happen? No.

What did happen?

The same notable few have embarked on a ?smear? campaign, a discredit campaign and, frankly, a campaign to bring caving itself into disrepute. They have not stopped at just ?shouting smear? but have been actively creating and publishing  smear media in a very pro-active attempt to de-rail the referendum.

These people condemn the ?yes? camp. They condemn the people working hard to achieve better access for ALL cavers, they condemn people who are pursing actions legally within their rights, they condemn the ?ordinary caver? and, as Nearlywhite correctly points out, they blacken the name of ?good? cavers in the face of landowners to fuel flames and fire.

This small number of people engaged in these active smear campaigns are a total disgrace to the caving community and they suffer us more damage every day with their disgusting behaviour.

Ian

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

If you come down to Cornwall, you will find all of your answers. People don't want you in their holes. If you ask them and make a fuss, they will merely look at their entrances more carefully.

Obviously, we are mostly mines down here.

As a part of my ?5m insurance cover, I made specifically sure that it covered "going down holes" to survey them for the purpose of subsidence risk assessment (under the guise of work). Even with this card pulled, people do not like the thought of holes, or anything to do with them. If it's a load of people "just poking around" or a seriously organised club with lots of special titles like a company, it doesn't change the mindset.

Stop making a fuss unless you absolutely have to. I VERY MUCH RESENT THIS CLUB MENTALITY AND "EMPIRE BUILDING". "We are all good and responsible, everyone else are a bunch of dangerous nutters, we will manage access for you and here's our BCA insurance".

If any of you waggle your willies in front of a landowner with this nonsense, or any other caving club nonsense, they will most likely tell you to F.O. They are more likely to then see that Jeeves makes sure that the entrance is sealed. This goes for the crown, duchy, private estates or Mrs Goggins with a shaft in her garden.