Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?

J

jasonbirder

Member
This has been done to death a thousand times...but you're essentiallt saying...
There are landowners who are happy (or at least accept) Walkers and Climbers having a Legal right to use access land...AND have good caver relations and are currently happy to allow cavers to go in Caves on their Land...that will be unhappy if the existing access they voluntarily grant to cavers is put on the same legal footing as the rights climbers and walkers currently enjoy...

Do that sound realistic?

More realistic...Landowners that don't currently like cavers...don't like the idea of CRoW access to Caves
Landowners with good Caver relations...won't give a flying f*ck about it...

Oh...Landowners that have been told by access bodies and/or clubs that CRoW access for Cavers is the end of the world...might currently be a little bit windy about it...wonder how/why that could have happened!
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
Jackalpup said:
This small number of people engaged in these active smear campaigns are a total disgrace to the caving community and they suffer us more damage every day with their disgusting behaviour.
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Thanks. Nice to see you wanting to keep the caving community united with your friendly comments.
 
danthecavingman

danthecavingman

Member
Peter,

A straightforward question. Would you like to see access rights extended to members of the public in respect of caving / potholing on CROW land in light of caving being an 'outdoor' activity 'in fresh air' in the spirit of the Act as it was probably intended?

For clarity, this does not include Mines. It does not include underground quarries. It does not encompass digging. Nor does it include diving. Just caving / potholing. Pure and simple. Walk up to an open entrance on CROW land and go caving.

Yes or no?

That is all I ask.

Dan.

 
bograt

bograt

Active member
Disgusted from Cornwall. said:
If you come down to Cornwall, you will find all of your answers. People don't want you in their holes. If you ask them and make a fuss, they will merely look at their entrances more carefully.

Obviously, we are mostly mines down here.

As a part of my ?5m insurance cover, I made specifically sure that it covered "going down holes" to survey them for the purpose of subsidence risk assessment (under the guise of work). Even with this card pulled, people do not like the thought of holes, or anything to do with them. If it's a load of people "just poking around" or a seriously organised club with lots of special titles like a company, it doesn't change the mindset.

Stop making a fuss unless you absolutely have to. I VERY MUCH RESENT THIS CLUB MENTALITY AND "EMPIRE BUILDING". "We are all good and responsible, everyone else are a bunch of dangerous nutters, we will manage access for you and here's our BCA insurance".

If any of you waggle your willies in front of a landowner with this nonsense, or any other caving club nonsense, they will most likely tell you to F.O. They are more likely to then see that Jeeves makes sure that the entrance is sealed. This goes for the crown, duchy, private estates or Mrs Goggins with a shaft in her garden.
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And your point is ? -- CRoW does not cover mines, unless you can find natural caves in your area this is not your thread, there should be a regional BCA body to cover your area, this is who you should contact to address your grievances.
 
J

jasonbirder

Member
If you come down to Cornwall, you will find all of your answers. People don't want you in their holes
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Yes, because obviously Cornwall is completely different to EVERY other mining region in the UK...
I mean, its proved possible to arrange access to and share knowledge about Mine Trips all over the Country...
From Nenthead to the Lake District to Yorkshire, The Peaks, North Wales, The Forest of Dean, Mendip etc etc...
Just about everywhere in the Country is it possible...despite Mines being on Farmland or Moorland, private land and access land...despite there being deep SRT trips, trips with bad Air etc etc all over the land...
In each and every region you can be assured of shared knowledge, resources access and a warme welcome from other Mine Explorers...
But NOPE Cornwall is completely different...and its TOTALLY down to the landowners...not eh Mine-Explorers...honest!
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
jasonbirder said:
If you come down to Cornwall, you will find all of your answers. People don't want you in their holes
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Yes, because obviously Cornwall is completely different to EVERY other mining region in the UK...
I mean, its proved possible to arrange access to and share knowledge about Mine Trips all over the Country...
From Nenthead to the Lake District to Yorkshire, The Peaks, North Wales, The Forest of Dean, Mendip etc etc...
Just about everywhere in the Country is it possible...despite Mines being on Farmland or Moorland, private land and access land...despite there being deep SRT trips, trips with bad Air etc etc all over the land...
In each and every region you can be assured of shared knowledge, resources access and a warme welcome from other Mine Explorers...
But NOPE Cornwall is completely different...and its TOTALLY down to the landowners...not eh Mine-Explorers...honest!
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:LOL: :LOL: Is that sarcasm or irony Jason ??, I have trouble differentiating -- :LOL: :LOL:
 
droid

droid

Active member
Ian's (Jackalpup) post is just the sort of overblown vitriolic rhetoric that isn't needed in this debate.

Expressing a need for caution and compromise when dealing with landowners isn't 'smear' it's common sense.

Now this may come as a shock to him, given his *ad hominem* approach to this, but I'm broadly in favour of CRoW. However, I was so unhappy with the 'gung ho' approach of *some* of the pro-CRoW lobby that I was one of the 37% that voted 'no'.

That doesn't mean however, that I wish to derail the campaign. I wish though, that the more fervent pro-CRoWers would try to understand some of the concerns of the CRoW-cautious side of things. These are genuine concerns. Address them in a similarly genuine manner and you may find people come round.

 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Pegasus said:
nearlywhite said:
This response is why most people I know don't go on UK Caving.
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Feel sad having read that - UKC is not just about debate on Crow  :( :(
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That's a good point Pegasus - we do all need to remember to be grateful for the work you do to keep this resource up and running. I've found it invaluable for tracking down hard to find information, among other things. Thank you (and same to Badlad).
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
As far as I am aware, UKCaving is not an online parliamentary committee enquiry where we are obliged to attend and be bullied into answering questions. I see no need to reply to questions personally directed at me in such a manner. Perhaps having UKCaving used in such a manner is deterring some people from using it?
 
tony from suffolk

tony from suffolk

Well-known member
I've been following this debate with great interest, and I'm very much in the  pro-CRoW for caving. OK, some folks get a bit hot under the collar, but there's nothing wrong in being passionate about the subject. Unless the moderators have removed posts, there's nothing I've seen on here that could really be construed as overly unpleasant and confrontational. If people get offended then they can't do much surfing of internet forums!

I do wonder though, why the antis cannot just accept the decision of the majority and why they persistently niggle away. It does them no credit at all.
 
Madness

Madness

New member
As you go through life you come across people who are just 'argumentative'.

They'll argue their case till the cows come home and continue long after most have got bored with the subject. They'll do almost anything to prove themselves right and won't listen to the other side of the argument.

While these people exist in the world we will have debates/arguments like this.

As for people not coming on ukcaving because of the CRoW debate? I think that's bollocks! They don't have to read every thread. It's quite easy to ignore threads that don't interest you.


 
Pegasus

Pegasus

Administrator
Staff member
Peter Burgess said:
Perhaps having UKCaving used in such a manner is deterring some people from using it?
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It's a shame to hear some people are deterred from using UKC, that is however their choice....fortunately more cavers than ever are not deterred from using UKC.  I get to see the stats and the number of visitors to the forum is increasing steadily all of the time.  So that's good news isn't it  ;)


 
The Old Ruminator

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
As was said its an emotional response thing. I know of several caves now closed here in the SW purely because the landowners fear future loss of control over access to their property. Best to close it down now in case the site gets scheduled in some way or future access control is taken away from the landowner. Maybe it is a regional issue. We dont have many huge grouse moors down here. We have lots of private farmland with public rights of way. Opening new caves and digging are certainly being put at risk by this issue.

So all you keen wind puffers. How is it more of this energy is not channeled into trip reports , dig news and photographs ? Its a sad state of affairs now that UKC has become just a hotbed of argument. :cry:
 
danthecavingman

danthecavingman

Member
Peter Burgess said:
As far as I am aware, UKCaving is not an online parliamentary committee enquiry where we are obliged to attend and be bullied into answering questions. I see no need to reply to questions personally directed at me in such a manner. Perhaps having UKCaving used in such a manner is deterring some people from using it?
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Peter, if that's directed at me then I resent the implication that I'm a bully and have deterred others from visiting the forum. I just asked a question. No you don't have to answer it but don't drag me down in the murk as you evade it with yet more inflammatory and exaggerated nonsense. Yes, it's just a forum.
I'm not going to comment further on CROW and caving. I've explained my stance several times and support the push to have caving included in the scope of the act.

Dan.
 
The Old Ruminator

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
NewStuff

NewStuff

New member
The Old Ruminator said:
So all you keen wind puffers. How is it more of this energy is not channeled into trip reports , dig news and photographs ? Its a sad state of affairs now that UKC has become just a hotbed of argument. :cry:
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Why are trip reports, photo's etc used as some sort of metric? I thought the idea was to enjoy ourselves underground. If people *like* taking pictures etc, then fine, have at it, but they shouldn't feel there is some obligation.
 
Badlad

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
For interest;

Last October I did a quick calc on how much the CRoW debate had been discussed on Ukcaving.  I reported those figures to a BCA Council meeting to demonstrate the amount the subject had been debated among cavers.  So, in the last ten years (up to October 2015 - more now obviously)

There had been 35 specific topics raised on CRoW and caving.

This had generated 4481 posts

Those posts received a total of 235,510 views.

So this debate has been around since ukcaving began.  It is an immensely popular topic of debate.  However if you have had enough of it there are plenty of other topics to read and contribute to.  (y)
 
royfellows

royfellows

Well-known member
jasonbirder said:
But NOPE Cornwall is completely different...and its TOTALLY down to the landowners...not eh Mine-Explorers...honest!
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Impartial comment.

Cornwall is different to other areas in that the Duchy of Cornwall own most of the mineral rights, and therefore the mines.
 
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