Is caving a suitable activity for children?

[cap n chris]

.... which precludes new people/children joining, presumably, then?

Surely you mean "and" instead of "or"?

 

[graham]

I think that "or" is exactly what I meant. The very fact that you can contemplate "and" means that you would be moving towards a situation, one I suspect foreseen by both Cookie and David Judson, where in order to cover their backs any club that allows children to join will insist on its members being CRB checked. Now, most caving clubs that I know would take such a suggestion and tell the originator exactly where they could shove it.

This is very sad, in many respects and is one of the results of a society where parents have become terrified of what might happen to their little darlings and where, as a consequence, we have a generation of obese kids who will, as the long-lasting thread on here suggests, die young. Another consequence is the remarkable dearth of male primary schools teachers nationwide. A bloke? Wants to work with little kids?? Gotta be a pervert!!!

As I said, very sad and it will have an effect on caver recruitment but caving of itself is insufficiently large an activity to be able to carry out the necessary social engineering without coming a cropper. If schools cannot overcome this, caving clubs certainly cannot.

 

[Clive G]

How else can a parent make a balanced/sound decision about the suitability of the proposed leader other than by the potential leader showing "proof", i.e. leader training/qualification/CRB'd?

Well, once you go down this route everyone is going to end up locked in little boxes, unable to meet anyone else for fear of transgressing some meaningless regulation. People usually get together for caving trips with those they trust through personal experience, but if you would prefer a world where trust is replaced by the presence or otherwise of some paper assessment, carried out by 'someone who is paid to know best for you', then I actually don't think you should be caving. Some of the worst crimes in the world are carried out by people given positions of absolute authority over others, because they have a system to protect them which can't afford to admit that it may be faulty or misused. Acting on personal instinct and intuition is how we live and stay alive!

 

[cap n chris]

I don't prefer such a world, Clive; but I suspect BCA recognises that this is an avenue down which caving clubs will be forced to travel and hence the original thread quoting a document suggesting children are unsuited* for inclusion in the UK club caving scene, thereby solving the problem at a stroke.


* Perhaps it's not that children are unsuited to clubs but that, by default of club committees and their members understandably being hostile to the necessary legal checks at large generally, clubs are unsuitable for children.

 

[Clive G]

I suspect BCA recognises that this is an avenue down which caving clubs will be forced to travel and hence the original thread quoting a document suggesting children are unsuited* for inclusion in the UK club caving scene, thereby solving the problem at a stroke.

This sort of philosophy is going to create a world where 'assessed adults' who can work the system to get into the position of controlling children's lives will end up bringing up your children for you. Ordinary people will not be considered 'experienced' or 'safe' enough to be allowed anywhere near children.

No, this is not right at all. I got my Blue Peter badge years ago from Biddy Baxter (as did four other cavers at the same time) for introducing young children to the adventure of cave exploration and none of this legal bureaucratic stuff is going to convince me that you have a valid policy for condemning such practice.

 

[cap n chris]

I'm not condemning it; please don't use such emotionally loaded terms! Merely stating that, nowadays, there are standard procedures to ensure proveably acceptable environments for certain at risk categories of people - disabled, children etc.. - and these have become enshrined in UK legislation. Ignoring this fact is your prerogative. BCA can't, though.

 

[Peter Burgess]

The question I was asked was is caving suitable for under 14s. I said yes. If a governing body makes a bald statement to the contrary for whatever reason, then it needs a very good reason for doing so. Either that, or the wording should have been phrased in such a way that it conveyed precisely what is was meant to convey and not leave itself open to the worm can openers of the legal world.

 

[Clive G]

Ignoring this fact is your prerogative. BCA can't, though.

Well, in taking this stance you've certainly ignored the good caving practice suggestions which I've made above.

If BCA is acting 'with its hands tied' and so ignores good caving practice, which has been developed down the years through experience, does it merit being considered a 'governing body'?

Where is your evidence that children have been harmed by good caving practice?

As I understand it under current legislation, children can legally participate in caving club activities, but if a body calling itself the 'governing body' states that children should not, then of course there is a problem. A very big problem. Anyone have a solution for this problem?

Of course there was the fatality of Joe Lister in Manchester Hole in November 2005. This highlights where there is a critical legal distinction between taking youngsters caving professionally for money and the recreation of caving - which takes place in caving clubs. The two should not be muddled up together.

The end point you're going to arrive at is that children should not join caving clubs, therefore children should go caving independently of the caving club environment, which practice, no doubt, they will feel quite at liberty to continue with into adulthood.

 

[graham]

It's a joke isn't it. Clive mentions the death of Joe Lister and I'll bet a pound to a pinch of shit that the leader of that trip had been CRB checked. On the other hand, can anybody remember a case of child abuse happening within the caving club environment?

 

[cap n chris]

Where is your evidence that children have been harmed by good caving practice?

Strange logic.

I'll bet a pound to a pinch of shit that the leader of that trip had been CRB checked

Is CRB checking supposed to make people immune to circumstance?

Is this all getting a bit OT?

 

[Cookie]

Cookie,  you cannot have a statement clearer than 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children"'   If that is not the policy of BCA, and I hope that it isn't, we urgently need clarification of where BCA does stand on this issue.

To reiterate you have the advantage of me since I do not have the letter in front of me and I can't quickly get a copy from the L&I Officers since he out - probably enjoying the nice weather.

But as I said earlier I don't believe that statement applies all children who go caving but applies to a subset of children who are potential members of caving clubs. If it doesn't make that clear then it needs to. Maybe it should have said "we do not regard club caving as a suitable activity for "children"

In fact the intention of this was increase younger participation in caving by encouraging clubs to adopt a lower age limit than is the norm. Many clubs have an age limit of 18 because of concerns about liability. The point of this documentation was to show that with a bit of common sense the legal responsibilities that a club has to its younger members are acceptable down to an age limit of 14.

If the parent is around the responsibility remains with the parent so the club needn't worry and could have an age limit of, say, minus 9 months (to cover the next generation of cavers conceived on the premises).

 

[Cookie]

By 'Club Caving' I mean members of a caving club.

We have many club trips with children but those children are not club members and are accompanied  by their parent(s).

 

[Clive G]

Now that Joe Lister has come to mind I'm going to have to ask why did no one go back to see if they could assist him? Probably because the rest of the party needed taking care of, but this does rather beg the question as to whether there really was a sufficient number of experienced cavers present on the trip, or whether the leader had sufficient training/experience to have the confidence to face a flooding cave?

I've stood out on dry ground in a flooded cave more than once, rescued other cavers from a flooded cave and avoided going into a flooding cave in the first place, but even official training courses can't give you the sort of experience and ability required to make the necessary split-second judgements under these conditions - except by being in the wrong (or rather the right) place at the right time.

If you stir things up so everyone is scared to take children caving then of course children are going to end up more at risk overall, because of there being insufficient experienced cavers around able to 'show them the ropes' and assist, should anything go unexpectedly wrong, as it could do at anytime - even driving along a road or socialising in a pub.

 

[graham]

Where is your evidence that children have been harmed by good caving practice?

Strange logic.

I'll bet a pound to a pinch of shit that the leader of that trip had been CRB checked

Is CRB checking supposed to make people immune to circumstance?

Is this all getting a bit OT?

Interesting word circumstance. What circumstances brought about the situation described by Clive where there was no-one available to keep an eye on Joe Lister? Before answering, I would refer you to my previous comment about party sizes and economics.

 

[cap n chris]

Haven't got any info from the Inquest, so can't comment with any certainty.

 

[Clive G]

Haven't got any info from the Inquest, so can't comment with any certainty.

Very sensible. I'm not being critical here or suggesting any fault in the Joe Lister case, but pointing to how even the best training and qualifications can't replace experience. And, you could cave for years and never be faced with an unexpected problem of the magnitude that this one was - sufficient to test anyone to their absolute limit.

The key point is that 'political correctness' and fascination with 'child protection' issues can actually end up doing more harm than good. If parents or guardians don't like or trust the members of a caving club, then how is the caving club going to get authorisation from the parent or guardian for the child to participate in its activities? Likewise, if a child should come to grief whilst participating in a caving club's activities what other parent would be happy to let its child remain with such a club? If you don't trust parents to make the right judgement for their children then why not ban children from existing at all? QED.

 

[cap n chris]

If, as you state, experience is to be valued above training and qualifications, how are you to gain this valuable commodity "experience of leading groups of children" nowadays when you are required to have the training, CRB and qualifications in order to do so in the first place?

 

[cap n chris]

If you don't trust parents to make the right judgement for their children then why not ban children from existing at all? QED.

Trust parents to make the right judgement?

You don't realise how close you are to the way things are going - we are not far away from a time when obese children are to be removed from their parents and placed into care since the child's obesity is proof of parental neglect.

 

[graham]

A mother has been told she cannot travel to school with her severely epileptic son because she has not been police checked...

Mrs Jones, 41, who is Alex's full-time carer, said: "I still don't understand why being his parent and being trained to use his drugs, I'm not allowed in the taxi.

"I would be in no contact with any children other than my own child.

"It would be a case of me going to school and catching a bus home and that's it.
Mrs Jones said he required 32 anti-convulsant drugs each day.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7500376.stm

In the face of fuckwittery such as this what makes any of you think that caving can do anything sensible.

 

[Clive G]

If, as you state, experience is to be valued above training and qualifications, how are you to gain this valuable commodity "experience of leading groups of children" nowadays when you are required to have the training, CRB and qualifications in order to do so in the first place?

Not what I said! Viz: 'even the best training and qualifications can't replace experience.' You need both - I'll leave it up to the 'experts' to decide which is the more valuable. Self-training happens in a lot of professions, where people have ended up missing out on early academic opportunities, for one reason or another.