Is caving a suitable activity for children?

[cap n chris]

My apols for the oversight, Clive! It is worth adding, however, that training distills decades of other people's experiences so that learning from others' errors isn't so much a case of history repeating itself. Sadly, UK Inquests/Coroners seem a closed source for those keen to learn and ensure that "it must never happen again".

 

[Clive G]

If you don't trust parents to make the right judgement for their children then why not ban children from existing at all? QED.

Trust parents to make the right judgement?

You don't realise how close you are to the way things are going - we are not far away from a time when obese children are to be removed from their parents and placed into care since the child's obesity is proof of parental neglect.

Well, obesity is one of my favourite topics, being skinny for years and years and having relatively little trouble in squeezes as a result. So, shock horror when I found myself putting on weight - which I've put down to eating biscuits as snacks rather than the huge meals which I used to eat with no noticeable effect. Yes, my theory is that there are additives in certain modern foodstuffs which induce the body to grow. So, rather than 'sack' the parents for over-feeding their children we should be looking a little more carefully at what is going on with the food that is being prepared for us in the food-processing centres.

 

[cap n chris]

Er, no; beg to differ.

Isn't that similar to arguing that car manufacturers are responsible for speeding because they make cars capable of breaking the speed limit? - surely, it is the driver's responsibility. Don't be keen to pass the buck!

P.S. If obesity is one of your favourite topics, you'll enjoy a happy hour reading this:
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,638.0.html

 

[ian.p]

well this is a shame at least half of our clubs membership must be under 14 the idea that caving is not suitable for under 14 is complete and utter shit i started caving aged 3 caving has been a huge part of my life as ive grown up and should not be denied to future generations.
for goodnes sake the BCA needs to get a bloody spine and start protecting youth caving this certainly bloody isnt its as much a part of there job as protecting adult caving.

 

[Clive G]

My apols for the oversight, Clive! It is worth adding, however, that training distills decades of other people's experiences so that learning from others' errors isn't so much a case of history repeating itself. Sadly, UK Inquests/Coroners seem a closed source for those keen to learn and ensure that "it must never happen again".

Thanks for this. I totally agree with you. The reason I asked the awkward questions is that if no one does, then, exactly as you say, the same set of circumstances is more likely than not to be repeated - with no one in the meanwhile having worked out a practicable way of getting round the problem. Experience rules!

 

[Clive G]

Er, no; beg to differ.

Isn't that similar to arguing that car manufacturers are responsible for speeding because they make cars capable of breaking the speed limit? - surely, it is the driver's responsibility. Don't be keen to pass the buck!

P.S. If obesity is one of your favourite topics, you'll enjoy a happy hour reading this:
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,638.0.html

The point I'm making here is about putting on more weight when actually eating less overall. I can give you an analogy with my car which was when I put my foot on the accelerator it slowed down and when I took my foot off the accelerator it speeded up again.

Know the answer? The fuel feed pipe between the petrol pump and carburettor became split whilst work was being done on the engine in a (professional main dealer) garage. I had just received the car back at the time, so the short drive to the M4 didn't reveal the problem, until I was in the overtaking lane slowing down rather too much. But this has got nothing to do with the subject in hand, so I'll omit the end to this rather long story - unless anyone one wants to buy me a pint in the pub to hear it sometime?!

 

[Hammy]

"The The British Mountaineering Council is committed to removing barriers to participation to anyone who wants to start climbing, hill walking or mountaineering."

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Category.aspx?category=9

Come on BCA...do your stuff!!

 

[Cookie]

well this is a shame at least half of our clubs membership must be under 14 the idea that caving is not suitable for under 14 is complete and utter shit i started caving aged 3 caving has been a huge part of my life as ive grown up and should not be denied to future generations.
for goodnes sake the BCA needs to get a bloody spine and start protecting youth caving this certainly bloody isnt its as much a part of there job as protecting adult caving.

If I remember correctly your group, like the scouts, is set up specifically to cater for youth activities and are to be commended for it. The vast majority of BCA Member clubs are more geared towards adults. The comment on age limits as aimed at them. The rest of it about Child Protection Policies would very much apply to EECC, but I'm sure you'll have all that in place already.  

 

[cap n chris]

But p.13 highlights similar concerns.

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcNews/media/u_content/File/clubs_huts/clubs/club_guidance_notes.pdf

 

[ian.p]

yes but the point is that phrases like 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children"' hardly helps are cause when we are quite clearly a club in our own right and clearly having a very young membership how on earth do we explain this to parents and how on earth would we explain it in court if somthing ever did go wrong. the BCA should be helping not harming us.
could the BCA at the very least retract this statement and issue it in a substantially better thaught out manner please before it does any damige.

 

[Hammy]

.....and the BMC seems to nicely summarise it in one page.......

 

[cap n chris]

Yes, indeed; however, I guess that the UK caving club scene is markedly different from the UK climbing club scene? Just a guess, mind you.

Postscript: nope, apparently it's very similar, according to checks via Google; most of the climbing clubs appear to have an over 18s requirement for membership although some have family membership. There doesn't appear to be a child-friendly (no parent required) club easily findable so I'm a-guessin' climbing clubs have experienced similar issues as caving clubs on this topic. It appears, then, that the BMC statement is more a case of intent than reality.

 

[Cookie]

"The The British Mountaineering Council is committed to removing barriers to participation to anyone who wants to start climbing, hill walking or mountaineering."

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Category.aspx?category=9

Come on BCA...do your stuff!!

And I'm sure BCA would give the same commitment.

BCA runs the training scheme that provides the necessary bit of paper (LCMLA, CIC) to enable children to be taken caving in lead groups.

There is a Youth Development Officer who has headed up the Try Caving initiative.

BCA attends the Outdoor Show and Cliffhanger (this very weekend) in order to promote caving to a younger audience.

This information on Child Protection is all part of the same commitment so that clubs have the information they need to encourage a younger membership.

But take a look at the BMC Child Protection Policy (http://tinyurl.com/6d8pcz) and you'll get an idea of the wide range and complexity of the issues that have to be dealt with.

 

[ian.p]

BCA runs the training scheme that provides the necessary bit of paper (LCMLA, CIC) to enable children to be taken caving in lead groups

so do all our leaders now need to be LCLA qualified? and why if we know them to be competent (we run our own training events and the abilitys of our leaders is assesed internaly by the staff group and camp cheif) should they have too this has never been the case before and we wernt aware this was going to be canging any time soon if it is then it will mean considerable expense to our organisation.
the try caving initiative will have no sucses in encouraging young people to take up caving if there is no opertunity for them to take it further i.e by joining a club.

 

[Cookie]

so do all our leaders now need to be LCLA qualified?

Not by the BCA, but there are organisations out there that do require some kind of formal scheme. BCA provides such a scheme for them.

 

[ian.p]

so what makes caving for a 14 year old more suitable with us then with another club is BCA saying that normal clubs are incapable of looking after younger members?
if the issue is child protection then it has nothing at all to do with the suitability of the sport for under 14 year olds and much more to do with club policys. furthermore it is still an issue for 15 year olds so a statement such as 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children" is compleatly and utterly useless and can do no good and only harm.

 

[Clive G]

well this is a shame at least half of our clubs membership must be under 14 the idea that caving is not suitable for under 14 is complete and utter shit i started caving aged 3 caving has been a huge part of my life as ive grown up and should not be denied to future generations.
for goodnes sake the BCA needs to get a bloody spine and start protecting youth caving this certainly bloody isnt its as much a part of there job as protecting adult caving.

If I remember correctly your group, like the scouts, is set up specifically to cater for youth activities and are to be commended for it. The vast majority of BCA Member clubs are more geared towards adults. The comment on age limits as aimed at them. The rest of it about Child Protection Policies would very much apply to EECC, but I'm sure you'll have all that in place already.  

Ah, so this is why caving has apparently been suffering from a dearth of new blood at the younger end of the age spectrum?

All this waffle going into detail evades the prime concern expressed in this debate, which is that to make a public statement from a position of apparent authority which implies caving is unsuitable for young people, in whatever context was originally intended but not spelled out properly, damages caving and stifles the potential inflow of future participants.

 

[Cookie]

I would say the difference is that you have a group of dedicated and trained volunteers who are willing to put the time and effort into taking young members caving, I think that is rarer in a normal club.

Yes you a right it is about club policies, that's my whole big thing point. The statement is about children who want to become members of a club, not about all children.

Yes child protection does apply to a 15 year old as well as a 14 year old, but it applies less to the 15 year old because being slightly older and hopefully wiser will be more responsible for his actions and the club less. Its a continuum, which doesn't necessarily finish at 18. Where do you draw the line?

Out of interest where do clubs draw the line? It is 16 for full voting membership of the Wessex.

 

[Hammy]

The statement is about children who want to become members of a club, not about all children.

the BCA have stated that 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children"' 

Clarification please!!

 

[Clive G]

The main context in which I have seen young people (sometimes quite younger than 10) caving as part of a caving club's activities, is where parents have taken their own and often friends' children caving.

Years ago I met up with Simon Edwards, a climber aged 16, at SWCC - a friend of Rob Parker's - who I went caving and climbing with in Daren Cilau in 1982. However, this was relatively unusual in those years since many young people caving then were university or college undergraduates, aged 18 or over. Back in the 1940s Agen Allwedd was pushed and explored for the first time by children aged 14 & 15, accompanied by one teacher - who often kept a watch at the cave entrance.

My first trip underground that I remember was aged around 4, at my own insistence, into a chalk tunnel near Rottindean in Sussex. I still remember how surprised I was that the tunnel didn't have a 'proper' floor - being unevenly cut and very slippery.

Martyn Farr told me that he went caving with his father in Eglwys Faen aged 10 and then the following year into Agen Allwedd, aged 11. He went to Turkey Pool and Coal Cellar in the same cave aged 12.

It is not to say that everyone has the same confidence and ability to be able to undertake such endeavours so young, but one thing is certain is that if you preach that such activities are frowned upon, then you're acting in a way to hinder people who would otherwise be quite capable of caving at a young age from fulfilling their potential in a legitimate fashion.

It is so easy to steer a discussion like this off into areas of 'political correctness', but the good work being done by youth & scout leaders and teachers, to give youngsters the same opportunities that we enjoyed as children, is to be applauded not admonished.