Is caving a suitable activity for children?

[Rachel]

Cookie wrote (then changed it while I was writing this...)

BCA's policy does not state that caving is unsuitable for under 14s

Correct! It says they do not proactively promote the participation of 16 to 18 year olds* in caving or mine exploration... 

Do we know how many regular caving children there are in the uk? I mean regular cavers, not kids who do one or two trips as part of a school adventure weekend. My guess is that there aren't that many - based on the difficulty I have had in buying suitably sized gear for my daughter. I hardly think that huge numbers of children are in danger of being led astray and turned into cavers (more's the pity). It would be interesting to have statistics for young BCA membership.

 

[cap n chris]

Buying caving gear for child sizes is straightforward and there's plenty available.

What child-sized gear can't you source?

 

[mak]

Cookie wrote (then changed it while I was writing this...)

BCA's policy does not state that caving is unsuitable for under 14s

Correct! It says they do not proactively promote the participation of 16 to 18 year olds* in caving or mine exploration... 

(*in section 1.02 they define "young persons" as 16 to 18 year olds then in section 2.05 state that they do not proactively promote the participation of young persons blah blah blah)

[sorry I had my rules exam at work today... ...does it show???]


Pedantry aside, whilst it doesn't actually say that caving is unsuitable for under 14s as Cookie rightly points pointed out, it does rather say that it doesn't really want to promote the idea of taking the yoof of today caving. They're not mature enough, (physically or mentally), they don't understand the weather or hydrology, and caves are a limited resource and they won't respect them.

Obviously I am paraphrasing slightly, but it does seem a little narrow minded when the sport needs new blood to survive. Perhaps the "Try Caving" link should read "Try Caving - but only if you're at least 18 and mature enough not to spoil things for the rest of us"...

In fact from a quick glance at the policy statement it would appear that the BCA are happy for under 16's to go caving as long as conditions 4.01 through 4.03 are followed.

Seems they just single out the alcopop generation at age 16 and 17 for exclusion from caves.

Although the latest communication to the government (and clubs - as raised in this topic) appears to now mean that under 14's are to be discouraged from caving.

so there you have it - 15 year olds are ok to cave as long as two adults are present otherwise it's only over 18's  :-\

Have the BCA contracted in cheap foreign (i.e. non native english speaking) labour to write up all their policy statements and communications? 

 

[ttxela]

What if a bunch of 14 year olds decide to take themselves off caving with no adults? I would have thought that would be perfectly reasonable if the trip is appropriate and common sense precautions such as callout arrangements etc. are taken.

Do such trips happen? Are they frowned upon? 

 

[cap n chris]

Yes. No.

It's not about caving being unsuitable for under 14s; it's about caving clubs being unsuitable for under 14s.

 

[graham]

Sanity check.

Let me quote from David Judson's letter to caving clubs:

1.we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children";

2.however, we feel that "children" quite often (but by no means always), develop into "young persons" at around the age of 14 years;

3.we also believe that it is in the 14-20 age range that "young persons" are most likely to develop an interest in caving, and that we ignore this at our peril!

Seems not unreasonable.

Also:

We should also like to make it clear that we are strongly against the approach whereby caving clubs feel that they should have nothing to do with this legislation and simply say that henceforth under 18s will not be allowed to take any part in their activities. We have two reasons for saying this:

1.by doing this they will be isolating themselves from new younger persons entering their club, and long-term they will be heading for the demise of their club;

2.they will not 'escape' this legislation because it also applies to all adult -child relationships, as well as to relationships with "vulnerable adults".

Note that these two quotes come from six pages of material from Dave as well as a 13 page booklet from the dcms.

Let's not take stuff too much out of context lads.

 

[Clive G]

Sanity check.

Let me quote from David Judson's letter to caving clubs:

1.we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children";

. . .

Let's not take stuff too much out of context lads.

When you make as point number '1' in official correspondence such a bald statement, then by the very nature of the position it holds amongst the other 6 pages of documentation, plus a 13-page booklet, you see exactly the context in which strong objection has been raised for its import.

I've already made the point above about a very experienced present day cave diver having done difficult and strenuous caving trips at the age of 12.

Someone else has additionally, quite reasonably in the light of the opinion expressed in this debate, asked for a retraction to be made in respect of the correspondence said to have been sent to a government department. If this is not done then the argument is just being sent round in circles - to no useful effect other than to attempt to maintain an incredibly harmful 'official' pronouncement, which appears, in any case, to contradict accepted BCA policy - yet which could, from now on, be used to 'modify and explain' accepted BCA policy.

 

[damian]

Thanks for this clarification, Graham.

I have not seen the letter myself and was starting to wonder if it was indeed inadvertantly mis-representing BCA policy. It appears it very clearly is NOT.

Please remember that this guidance is intended for Caving Clubs as a way, in part, of encouraging them to step beyond the often held "no under 18s" rule. In this respect, it is trying to encourage more caving by under 18s, not less. It would be amiss of the BCA to encourage clubs to put themselves, their members and their caves at risk by encouraging the wholesale adoption of all Under 18s. Therefore, for the time being, a policy of "yes, but with parents" seems eminently sensible to me.

Have the BCA contracted in cheap foreign (i.e. non native english speaking) labour to write up all their policy statements and communications? 

I happen to know (because I was involved in it) that considerable thought and effort was recently put into revising the BCA Child Protection Policy and Guidance and that David Judson has tried hard to provide balanced and sensible advice in a very difficult area. In that context I cannot leave your remark unchallenged.

 

[graham]

Clive, you have immediately removed that point from its context again.

 

[Clive G]

Clive, you have immediately removed that point from its context again.

The point forms the basis for everything which follows. It is a misinterpretation to say that it only relates to club caving. It states de facto that "we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children";" and no amount of squirming to say that the letter goes on to present a different overall argument, escapes from the fact that it is a faulty and wrong statement to make - especially if you value making judgements based on past practice and experience, and giving caving a future amongst young people's interests!

But, I've made my point. Take the argument round in circles if that is your wish. I see here a developing line of reasoning that so long as cavers adhere to the fears of insurers (and those who apparently give caving insurance away 'free') then some people will still be 'permitted' to carry out their caving - subject, of course, to an n-page booklet of associated rules and conditions.

 

[graham]

In which case, mate, you have missed the point completely. This particular issue has absolutely nothing to do with insurance, free or otherwise and everything to do with child protection legislation.

 

[Clive G]

In which case, mate, you have missed the point completely. This particular issue has absolutely nothing to do with insurance, free or otherwise and everything to do with child protection legislation.

I see that I've changed from being 'Clive' to 'mate' over the space of two posts!

There's been quite a discussion about insurance in this thread, so perhaps 'child protection legislation' is being used as a cover? There was a very sensible post above by Ouan (reply #72) detailing how one club in particular has dealt with allowing young people to participate in its activities, enquiring as to the impact of this question on PL insurance for the under 14s. It was Cookie who then concurred completely with the structure which had been outlined for young people's participation in club caving. (See my reply #79.)

You might be getting slightly rattled, but don't duck the important issue at stake here which is to avoid hindering young people from taking up caving. By all means make a statement to remove young people from club caving, if the clubs want to go along with such an approach, but don't pretend caving is unsuitable for young people en bloc.

 

[Clive G]

Whilst everyone else has wandered off to have tea, I have taken a moment to re-read the extracts from the relevant letter quoted above and now see where the problem lies. Young people are separated into either being "children", aged under 14, or, if older, "young persons". Caving is specifically stated as being not suitable for children, but caving clubs are advised to make adequate provision for young persons.

I can see a sort of curious logic here, to act as a sort of 'catch all', but when does a 'child' really become a 'young person'? Is every person the same at the same given age? I think such logic creates confusion of the type found in this debate, especially when the foundation statement made under point '1' is likely to be quoted in isolation throughout the media, should any future problem arise for "young persons" in caving.

So, looking back at the first posting in this topic, I empathise entirely with Andy Sparrow, which is to say: what about all the non-caving club groups and teachers/instructors who take children aged under 14 caving? And parents who do the same?

Is BCA representing all facets of caving in this matter, or focusing purely on the caving club scene, at the expense of other genuine cavers?

 

[cap n chris]

Thanks for the clarification over the categories, Clive.

If your analysis is correct (and Andy's) then it appears that BCA has, perhaps unwittingly and with the best intentions, made things "interesting" for The Scouts, Outdoor Pursuits companies, AALS/AALA and caving leaders across the nation, .... and the BCA Training Committee and, certainly not least, providers of commercial insurance policies covering them.


.... oh, and the tens of thousands of "children", each year, who rank the caving trip as the highlight of their outdoor pursuits holidays.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think we have been here before - does BCA represent caving clubs or all cavers? Discuss ad nauseam.

 

[cap n chris]

Well, isn't BCA the National Governing Body of UK Caving?

If so, surely this risks putting the kybosh on those who work to, adhere to, interpret or oversee procedures relating to NGB guidelines, unless it is accepted that this particular NGB inhabits its own parallel universe where left is right and right is left, simultaneously.

 

[ttxela]

Thanks for the clarification over the categories, Clive.

If your analysis is correct (and Andy's) then it appears that BCA has, perhaps unwittingly and with the best intentions, made things "interesting" for The Scouts, Outdoor Pursuits companies, AALS/AALA and caving leaders across the nation, .... and the BCA Training Committee and, certainly not least, providers of commercial insurance policies covering them.


.... oh, and the tens of thousands of "children", each year, who rank the caving trip as the highlight of their outdoor pursuits holidays.

And me and my daughter if Mrs T, the mother-in-law etc. etc. ever get wind of such advice. The standard response to any planned caving/hiking/climbing trip is already "should you really be taking............."

 

[Clive G]

Sanity check.

Let me quote from David Judson's letter to caving clubs:

1.we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children";

. . .

Seems not unreasonable.

. . .

Let's not take stuff too much out of context lads.

How about:

1. we do not regard caving clubs which are primarily organised for adults over 18 as providing a suitable environment for children under 14, unless accompanied by their parent(s), legal guardian(s) or duly authorised close relative, teacher or instructor, who should be a full member of the club concerned and must take full responsibility for the child's wellbeing at all times;

Then can we wrap up this potentially endless debate, please?!

 

[kay]

There's been quite a discussion about insurance in this thread, so perhaps 'child protection legislation' is being used as a cover?

The letter begins "The BCA has been asked by the Government (the DCMS and the NSPCC) to support them in their Child Protection Drive by sending you a copy of a brochure "Helping to keep your child Safe in Sport" - recently produced by them." - so, no, I don't think 'child protection legislation' is being used a s cover for insurance requirements.

 

[ColinA]

Ive been caving and mining with my kids since they were 3 & 4, also with kids of caving and mining partners , the kids really enjoyed it, both are now in their late teens capable and competent SRT cavers, I have entrusted them on occasion to other cavers and miners I trust and have also supervised others children in similar circumstances . Paper qualifications are not automatic passports of trust having seen some abominable practices by so called qualified caving and mine leaders, competence, experience, capability, and adaptability count for much more in my book. Caving IS a suitable activity for children only almost alien environments like the ones we play in can produce the produce the cranial thrill of behavioral adaptation to new situations which constitutes the excitement of exploration, should we deny any child this the answer is an emphatic NO!