Is caving a suitable activity for children?

[ian.p]

quite
look its not that dificult a thing it just needs a change in the wording so that this letter says what it means at the moment it is quite misleading (asuming that BCA policy is to encourage more young people into caving which i trust that it does seing as it representing cavers of all ages :read to a degree which could be damiging to the sport.

 

[Cookie]

It does seem that the opinion voiced through this debate has helped bring about a complete reversal of policy by BCA.

I think the policy is exactly the same as it ever was. However I hope the debate has spread a little light and understanding.

 

[Peter Burgess]

The letter says that in a recent communication with the government the BCA have stated that 'we do not regard caving as a suitable activity for "children"'

The message to cavers has been clarified, but who is going to clarify/correct the statement to the government department?

 

[Ouan]

Insurance is not an issue here. The BCA policy insures children. There are no age limits.

Is the insurance company aware of this proposed policy?
The BCA will sell insurance and membership to someone under 14, even though its own policy states that caving is an unsuitable activity for such a person (assuming Andy hasn't quoted out of context).  The BCA also appears to be advising caving clubs not to accept members under 14, contrary to its own membership rules. 

This all seems a little inconsistent.

 

[ttxela]

I'm not involved with the BCA or with the running of a club, however I do take my child underground on club trips, on my own, with friends and on occasions with a commercial instructor and find the statement as presented on here a bit alarming. I haven't seen the document though and rather than get worked up can those in the know answer;

Q. Are the BCA advising my club not to let my child attend trips (or is the letter easily mis-interpreted as such advice)

Q. Are the BCA advising that caving is physically unsuitable for under 14's or just that it's difficult to put the necessary "Child Protection" measures in place.

As I posted earlier in this topic

Bearing in mind 2 and 3 above, it is my considered opinion that we should not be encouraging ?children? into caving. If caving parents wish to take their children caving (as a caving club activity or otherwise) then that is fine and we should support this, but we should not support it as a mainstream club activity.

So we are talking about advice to mainstream caving clubs.

To answer your questions:

1) No, not at all so long as the parent is present for under 14 year olds.

2) Again no but the adults present need to be aware of the common sense requirement for the child's safety and well being. For example children get colder quicker.

I think I understand the position. I'm reasonable confident that the clubs I'm in will take a sensible view, however club administrations change and ambiguous wording can be a problem. I've no problem with people not wanting children along on trips but it seems a shame if anyone wants to run children friendly or family trips they are not encouraged to do so.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think I understand the position. I'm reasonable confident that the clubs I'm in will take a sensible view, however club administrations change and ambiguous wording can be a problem. I've no problem with people not wanting children along on trips but it seems a shame if anyone wants to run children friendly or family trips they are not encouraged to do so.

Club trip or not, I'd prefer the company of ttxela and daughter-of-ttxela underground than some of the so-called grown-ups in our club!

 

[andymorgan]

Insurance is not an issue here. The BCA policy insures children. There are no age limits.

Is the insurance company aware of this proposed policy?
The BCA will sell insurance and membership to someone under 14, even though its own policy states that caving is an unsuitable activity for such a person (assuming Andy hasn't quoted out of context).  The BCA also appears to be advising caving clubs not to accept members under 14, contrary to its own membership rules. 

This all seems a little inconsistent.

Also, now that statement has been made would the insurance policy pay out? Insurers always try to find a loophole to not pay out.

 

[ttxela]

I think I understand the position. I'm reasonable confident that the clubs I'm in will take a sensible view, however club administrations change and ambiguous wording can be a problem. I've no problem with people not wanting children along on trips but it seems a shame if anyone wants to run children friendly or family trips they are not encouraged to do so.

Club trip or not, I'd prefer the company of ttxela and daughter-of-ttxela underground than some of the so-called grown-ups in our club!

nice of you to say so Peter :hug: just remember "farting isn't funny" 

 

[VivB]

Hmm,
walking - pretty much ok for most children
squeezes - if they are smaller, all the better
getting a bit wet - sorry, but my children love getting wet
ropework etc - beyond the ability of many (but not all) smaller children

We take children climbing, for personal development, but we don't point them at an E4 and say "you'll be fine"!
Same with caving, the venue (and conditions) should suit the group.  Or just let them veg in cotton wool land, then they'll get too fat and it will no longer be an issue.

I agree with that other fella, though.  A policy statement that makes it sound too dangerous for under 14s could be a problem.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think I've said it before, but I took my sons into their first 'wild' cave at the ages of 3 and 4. Very simple trip from Goatchurch Main entrance, down Giants, and back out of Tradesman's. Yes, they needed a lot of help, but as far as I am concerned they were never in any danger, both mum and dad present, and the result was a real sense of achievement. Isn't that what it should be about?

 

[ditzy 24//7]

it is all about having fun, if a child wants to try caving then they should, there should be no worries about the age of a child, afterall, a child can only gain experiance by actually going on trips. obviously there will be limits to what a child can do, but as time goes on they will learn more skills and then they will be able to do harder trips. afterall everyone starts off as a novice at some point.

 

[damian]

The BCA will sell insurance and membership to someone under 14 ...

Sorry to be fussy but it is important to understand that the BCA sells membership . Insurance then comes as part of the benefits of membership. The BCA does not sell insurance.

 

[Cookie]

Insurance is not an issue here. The BCA policy insures children. There are no age limits.

Is the insurance company aware of this proposed policy?
The BCA will sell insurance and membership to someone under 14, even though its own policy states that caving is an unsuitable activity for such a person (assuming Andy hasn't quoted out of context). The BCA also appears to be advising caving clubs not to accept members under 14, contrary to its own membership rules.

This all seems a little inconsistent.

BCA's policy does not state that caving is unsuitable for under 14s.

The policy is available to read here: www.british-caving.org.uk/?page=102.

This debate has been revolving around section 2.05.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Very good. So what was 'the government' actually told? Was it as bald a statement as stated in the letter sent out to clubs? Or was there some qualification ? This is the issue that I haven't heard an answer to, or did I miss it?

 

[ttxela]

Insurance is not an issue here. The BCA policy insures children. There are no age limits.

Is the insurance company aware of this proposed policy?
The BCA will sell insurance and membership to someone under 14, even though its own policy states that caving is an unsuitable activity for such a person (assuming Andy hasn't quoted out of context). The BCA also appears to be advising caving clubs not to accept members under 14, contrary to its own membership rules.

This all seems a little inconsistent.

BCA's policy does not state that caving is unsuitable for under 14s.

The policy is available to read here: www.british-caving.org.uk/?page=102.

This debate has been revolving around section 2.05.

That section seems a reasonable position to take and well worded even if you don't entirely agree with the sentiment, however it is a million miles away from saying "caving is an unsuitable activity for children" which seems a statement destined to cause controversy.......

 

[Ouan]

Could someone who has seen this letter that was sent to all the BCA member clubs please post the letter on this forum or elsewhere on the internet so we can know what we are arguing about. Is Andy Sparrow quoting out of context? If this letter isn't quoting BCA policy I'm a bit lost as to why it was sent to a government department.

To go off topic and reply to damian: I would interpret it that BCA sells insurance and you get free membership with your policy.  It's a question of semantics.   

 

[Cookie]

Very good. So what was 'the government' actually told? Was it as bald a statement as stated in the letter sent out to clubs? Or was there some qualification ? This is the issue that I haven't heard an answer to, or did I miss it?

I can't help you there since I'm not privy to the correspondence. You'll have to take it up with the L&I Officer.

At the end of the day it is the agreed and published policy (url above) that counts. BCA has to act in accordance with its own policies.

 

[damian]

To go off topic and reply to damian: I would interpret it that BCA sells insurance and you get free membership with your policy.  It's a question of semantics.   

You may view it that way, but the insurance is one of a number of benefits of membership.

The BCA cannot and does not sell insurance.

 

[cap n chris]

Selling insurance is a regulated industry, with onerous bureaucracy attaching to it. If BCA did happen to sell insurance, rather than give it away, it would cost considerably more than the BCA membership + free insurance; however, if you prefer to have it as an insurance selling organisation with free membership attaching to each policy and are happy for every UK caver to pay many times more than they presently do for effectively an identical overall package then I suggest you ballot everyone for their agreement and get the sentence wording officially altered to suit your preferred semantics.

 

[Hatstand]

Cookie wrote (then changed it while I was writing this...)

BCA's policy does not state that caving is unsuitable for under 14s

Correct! It says they do not proactively promote the participation of 16 to 18 year olds* in caving or mine exploration... 

(*in section 1.02 they define "young persons" as 16 to 18 year olds then in section 2.05 state that they do not proactively promote the participation of young persons blah blah blah)

[sorry I had my rules exam at work today... ...does it show???]


Pedantry aside, whilst it doesn't actually say that caving is unsuitable for under 14s as Cookie rightly points pointed out, it does rather say that it doesn't really want to promote the idea of taking the yoof of today caving. They're not mature enough, (physically or mentally), they don't understand the weather or hydrology, and caves are a limited resource and they won't respect them.

Obviously I am paraphrasing slightly, but it does seem a little narrow minded when the sport needs new blood to survive. Perhaps the "Try Caving" link should read "Try Caving - but only if you're at least 18 and mature enough not to spoil things for the rest of us"...