Is the CRoW Campaign Against the BCA Constitution?

[jasonbirder]

Presumably, because nobody imagined what was put in the constitution as a relatively innocuous statement of "playing nicely" intended to mitigate against trespass, unauthorised access/removing gates etc etc...would be used by the more cunning of the administrators in an attempt to overrule the wishes of the BCA membership...

Nobody on the pro-CRoW side is tedious enough to make a "splitting hairs argument" about the constitution or that one of the stated "Aims" of the BCA is " obtaining, ensuring, maintaining and encouraging access"

Because neither points were put in that constitution in that spirit...its not about THE LETTER of the LAW its about the wishes of the membership...

And the members obviously and undeniably want the BCA to ensure Cavers have better access...much to the chagrin of many in positions of "authority"
 

 

[Kenilworth]

Dickens

"Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused, and the greater part knew not why they had come together."

Acts 9:32

 

[droid]

Presumably, because nobody imagined what was put in the constitution as a relatively innocuous statement of "playing nicely" intended to mitigate against trespass, unauthorised access/removing gates etc etc...would be used by the more cunning of the administrators in an attempt to overrule the wishes of the BCA membership...

Nobody on the pro-CRoW side is tedious enough to make a "splitting hairs argument" about the constitution or that one of the stated "Aims" of the BCA is " obtaining, ensuring, maintaining and encouraging access"

Because neither points were put in that constitution in that spirit...its not about THE LETTER of the LAW its about the wishes of the membership...

And the members obviously and undeniably want the BCA to ensure Cavers have better access...much to the chagrin of many in positions of "authority"

Possibly.

However, unless 37% of those members that voted are in positions of 'authority' or 'administrators' then your comments need a little adjustment.

Frankly, I was shocked so many people voted against.

 

[Ed]

The constitution only says right of land owner etc.....no where does itsay the BCA can't not campaign for a change.


Strangely sat in The Heights in Llanberis - talking to climbers. Quote "what a bunch of my poets not wanting access why don't they just by Xbox and virtual cave"

 

[Gollum]

I can see clearly now why many years ago my instructor friends advised me to keep well clear of recreational cavers and clubs and just go caving.
Maybe we should be asking does anybody really care if it's against constitution and what does it really matter.
Think I'll save myself a load of money next year and not bother with BCA and clubs and just go caving wherever i want because the land owner will only blame you lot anyway.
Think you lot should cave together because you'd never agree which way to go and probably never get out.

 

[AR]

Frankly, I was shocked so many people voted against.

Perhaps many of those people were thinking "if we vote no then that'll stop the endless bickering on UKC"?

 

[Bob Mehew]

This could be unwise but it has been a long day, including the longest ever Council meeting in almost 20 years of which 3 hours was spent on the 3 complaints over BCA's work on CRoW.  Reflecting on my drive home I think that in all fairness I should not try to summarised what happened because no doubt some one will critique it.  So I will be a tease and leave it to the draft minutes (and probably BCA's newsletter due out in around 3 weeks) to explain what went on at today's Council meeting and why Council decided what it decided.  I was not able to even make accurate records of the motions put up for voting so feel I will just get slated if I quote my notes.  Sorry about that but it is clear that some people will critique down to the comma. 

(And if you think that may be extreme, then the Ramblers won a case last year where in an 1816 statute which read ? such private Roads, Bridleways, Footways...?, did the comma mean private applied to just roads or the whole list.  They eventually won the case having started it in 1993!  See http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2015/669.html.  And I will scream if some one goes off topic to answer it.)

One other thing I am not prepared to do is try and answer the many questions that have been posted through today as I just don't have the spare time to do so.  In my defense I would plead I have a shed load of work coming out of today's meeting and I feel my time will be better spent trying to take things forward in a manner which takes into account some of the useful points made today rather than trying to justify the tortuous path which work on CRoW has wandered down over the past couple of years due I will say (being as no doubt some will claim prejudiced) in part by the demands of a minority. 

As I said, probably an unwise post but ....... now to bed.

 

[cavermark]

Keep up the good work, Bob. 

 

[badger]

what bob said

 

[Ian Adams]

Nicely done today Bob and good to meet you.



Ian

 

[Jenny P]

Just as a matter of interest I looked up Bob's reference so I'll just quote you point 66 of the Judgement:
In view of the conclusion that we have reached on the first issue, it is unnecessary for us to deal with the remaining issues and we do not propose to do so.

But, back to BCA - I thought it actually was quite a good meeting but it was hard going.

Sleep well, Bob. 

 

[cap n chris]

Dickens

"Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused, and the greater part knew not why they had come together."

Acts 9:32

'A house divided amongst itself cannot stand'.

 

[badger]

I think the minutes will be posted on the BCA website, cavers can see then what was minuted about 4.6
I think the view is that if crow does apply (wont go into this bit) then 4.6 is wrong and has been since the constitution was put in writing.
I would also say that like the referendum it is only a majority of council think BCA is acting within the constitution, there is also a minority who think otherwise.
like the referendum, like the forum it is an emotive subject. one that will not be resolved  quickly. and yes it was a long day including the 5 hours of driving and Saturday radio is shit if you don't have digital.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Dickens

"Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused, and the greater part knew not why they had come together."

Acts 9:32

'A house divided amongst itself cannot stand'.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved ? I do not expect the house to fall ? but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become lawful in all the regions, old as well as new ? North as well as South.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Just as a matter of interest I looked up Bob's reference so I'll just quote you point 66 of the Judgement:
In view of the conclusion that we have reached on the first issue, it is unnecessary for us to deal with the remaining issues and we do not propose to do so.

SCREAM  Even I did not get that far.