it's all gone quiet again

[Cumbrian Neil]

Ah - thanks! "Pooth Dwoofen" apparently. (Pause for all the shocked sounds from the Welsh speakers at this mangling of their language)

Cumbrian Neil - w and y are both vowels in Welsh

but even English has nymphs and rhythms - great 'hangman' stand-byes.
And we have a 9 letter word with only one vowel - strengths.

You learn something everyday!! I lived on a road in the USA called Bryn Afon... which M. Farr translated as "river by the hill". The lake I lived on was called Snowden.

 

[Rhys]

You learn something everyday!! I lived on a road in the USA called Bryn Afon... which M. Farr translated as "river by the hill".

bryn = hill
afon = river

So Bryn Afon would be more likely to translate as "hill of the river"

pwll = pit or pool
dwfn = deep

So Pwll Dwfn roughly means "deep pit".

Rhys

 

[cap n chris]

Yes, Pwll Dwfn is quite deep and pit-like so it's an accurate name. Unlike placenames such as Goatchurch Cavern or Fairy Cave.

 

[dunc]

Stumbled across this a short while back on Welsh pronunciation, also includes quite a few pronunciations of other well known caves....
http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/book/index.php?chapter=16

Unlike placenames such as Goatchurch Cavern or Fairy Cave.

You mean to tell me there are no goats attending mass and no cute little fairy things down that cave

 

[cap n chris]

Goatchurch is usually full of sweaty screaming children while Fairy Cave is often stuffed with large black moths (especially during Winter).

 

[kay]

pwll = pit or pool
dwfn = deep

So Pwll Dwfn roughly means "deep pit".

But the original quote was 'pwff' not 'pwll'. Was that just a misspelling? 'Pwll' I would have recognised.

 

[kay]

Did english derive 'pool' from 'pwll'? Or did welsh derive 'pwll' from 'pool'? Or are they unrelated?

And 'eglwys' seems too close to 'eglise' (church in welsh and french resp) to be unrelated.

 

[cap n chris]

The orriginul PWFF was spult rong, I wrekun.

 

[mudmonkey]

Eglise is also related to ecclesiastical (eng.) and I think has its origins in the Greek "ecclesia", which I am told literally means "gathering". Churches (and other mobs) in the New Testament are referred to as ecclesia (so I am told by people who can read Greek), I guess the term spread as the church spread and hence got into lots of languages?

 

[dunc]

Goatchurch is usually full of sweaty screaming children

Hmmm.. Stinky goats, sweaty children, theres a similarity! Is Long Churn the Northern English equivalent for Goatchurch I wonder..

Did english derive 'pool' from 'pwll'? Or did welsh derive 'pwll' from 'pool'? Or are they unrelated?

According to a book I have Welsh is the oldest language in the British Isles. Other info - Welsh words

 

[kay]

I thought Cornish was older than Welsh?

And is Welsh any older than Irish and Scots Gaelic?

 

[dunc]

I thought Cornish was older than Welsh?
And is Welsh any older than Irish and Scots Gaelic?

Quite possibly all same age as they are derived from Celtic, but is Cornish still in active usage as is the Welsh language? Do you drive through Cornwall and see Cornish road signs..?
Irish and Scots - yes - probably similar age and yes its sill in use - road sings WAY up north in Scotland still show proper spelling of places alongside English names (although not as much as Wales imho).
See:
Language.... for some info on the matter..

 

[kay]

Thanks for that link - interesting, and very clear on the relationships between the various Celtic languages, and the Brythonic and Goidelic branches.

They're pushing for a revival of Cornish quite heavily at the moment, and I think they are planning Cornish road signs. But I take your point, it's not as living a language as Welsh by a long way.

 

[cap n chris]

You're pretty much spot on, Dunc; Goatchurch is Mendip's equivalent of Long Churn except that it's mostly dry apart from a trickle of water in..... (wait for it!)... Water Chamber.

 

[Rhys]

Did english derive 'pool' from 'pwll'? Or did welsh derive 'pwll' from 'pool'? Or are they unrelated?.

My Welsh dictionary doesn't give word origins, but my English one says "pool" has a Germanic origin. So, it would seem likely that Welsh borrowed the word from English - but I'm not a linguist so this could be completely wrong!

And 'eglwys' seems too close to 'eglise' (church in welsh and french resp) to be unrelated.

Welsh adopted lots of words from Latin. I would guess that "eglwys" is one of those words.

To bring the this thread back on topic, another cave name...

Eglwys Faen = Stone Church

Rhys

 

[Dave H]

Sorry Rhys but I couldn't resist it,

The word Welsh is actually an Old English word meaning “slave” and at first was applied by the Anglo-Saxons.

And of course there are the Merriam-Webster definitions of Welsh:
1 : to avoid payment -- used with on <welshed on his debts>
2 : to break one's word : RENEGE <welshed on their promises>
but these are related to more recent English-Welsh quarrells.

it would seem likely that Welsh borrowed the word from English

That would make a change as English is the language that has 'borrowed' the most foreign words.

My copy of Britannica says that Bikini is the only universal word and was coined by a Frenchman (after the Atol) to describe his clothing design. This is probably helped by the French law that states that other new universal words (such as computer) have to be given a French name. The French guy I work with says that older folk in France really frown on the use of 'OK' by the young as the 'official' word is dacour.

I'd better finish now before I annoy anyone else. :twisted:

BTW. I'm going to France on holiday in a few weeks, and I hope that I don't end up in a fight, like I did last time. It was at the time of the last bout of the French not allowing the import of our meat, and I was cleaning the insects off my windscreen and the front of my car quite dilligently, as I waited in the ferry terminal at Calais for a ferry back to England. A car load of French lads gesticulated and suggested in French that I was being very careful and I replied in English that I didn't want to accidentally import any of their meat. At least the security guards saw the funny side of it and let us on the next ferry first! :roll:

 

[Rhys]

Sorry Rhys but I couldn't resist it,

The word Welsh is actually an Old English word meaning “slave”....

This is all very interesting, but I never suggested anything about the origin or meaning of the word "Welsh", in any language. (Actually, my understanding was that it meant "foreigner", not "slave", but never mind)

The French guy I work with says that older folk in France really frown on the use of 'OK' by the young as the 'official' word is dacour.

I think you mean "d'accord"

Have a nice holiday! 8)
Rhys

 

[Dave H]

I think you mean "d'accord"

Quite correct.
I should have got it right - I did a lot of work for Ligier many years ago and we all had to speak French to each other (even though half of us were English), but I never really got the hang of the language (especially written). Imagine the scene of two English blokes struggling to speak French to each other in the pits at Silverstone, to realise how farcical that rule really was!