Kingsdale Rescue
- Thread starter JJ
- Start date
M
MSD
Guest
Free diving sumps seems to me to be a fairly advanced caving technique. People doing it ought to:
a) Know how to make sure they are diving the right sump
b) Wear reasonable equipment.
c) Have enough sense to turn around if the situation gets sticky, i.e. longer/tighter/nastier than expected
I think it's reasonable to expect the above as a minimum. For at least 99% of people I also think it's a good idea to do your first dives with someone experienced who has dived that sump before.
Or...we could have a labelling system. While we're at it, we could also put a laminated rigging topo at the top of every pitch in the country and a signpost at every junction. Oh, and a picture of a "well dressed and equipped caver" at every entrance....
Mark
a) Know how to make sure they are diving the right sump
b) Wear reasonable equipment.
c) Have enough sense to turn around if the situation gets sticky, i.e. longer/tighter/nastier than expected
I think it's reasonable to expect the above as a minimum. For at least 99% of people I also think it's a good idea to do your first dives with someone experienced who has dived that sump before.
Or...we could have a labelling system. While we're at it, we could also put a laminated rigging topo at the top of every pitch in the country and a signpost at every junction. Oh, and a picture of a "well dressed and equipped caver" at every entrance....
Mark
cap n chris
Well-known member
The signs would also need to be embossed in braille for those who were visually impaired. Plus there would need to be ramps at the entrance for our disabled brethren.
Chris J
Active member
Wonder if the recent image on TV or someone free diving sumps had anything to do with it? If they were beginners then it wouldn't surprise me.
Consider that it showed two novices being taken to free dive sumps on one of their first trips - this ather suggests that free diving is normal occurance that all cavers regularly partake in - rather than an advanced technique!
Consider that it showed two novices being taken to free dive sumps on one of their first trips - this ather suggests that free diving is normal occurance that all cavers regularly partake in - rather than an advanced technique!
SamT
Moderator
Hmm - so the tags are a no go then. :-\
I understand and appreciate the sarcastic comments about signs, Ive made many myself on this very forum.
But divers dont piss about do they, they have in tags - out tags, distance tags etc etc.
Thats because the consequences of getting it wrong can easily be fatal. Bit like trying to free dive the wrong sump.
As has been pointed out - Sump diving - whether free or not - is an Advanced technique. and a small tag on the end of a dive line that states which sump it is, is hardly going overboard on the sheparding front.
Perhaps its only needed on a couple of sumps where confusion has been known to take place. Swildons - Rowten.
There has been a sign at both ends of the Giants windpipe for decades . It reads
" GIANTS WINDPIPE - do not attempt to dive if sumped, it is in excess of 20 feet long!! "
Thats well enough to put anyone unfamilier with sump off attempting it - thinking it might just be a duck. Anyone who knows the sump - would know well enough that it would be virtually suicide to try and free dive it due to the tight and awkward nature of the passage.
I understand and appreciate the sarcastic comments about signs, Ive made many myself on this very forum.
But divers dont piss about do they, they have in tags - out tags, distance tags etc etc.
Thats because the consequences of getting it wrong can easily be fatal. Bit like trying to free dive the wrong sump.
As has been pointed out - Sump diving - whether free or not - is an Advanced technique. and a small tag on the end of a dive line that states which sump it is, is hardly going overboard on the sheparding front.
Perhaps its only needed on a couple of sumps where confusion has been known to take place. Swildons - Rowten.
There has been a sign at both ends of the Giants windpipe for decades . It reads
" GIANTS WINDPIPE - do not attempt to dive if sumped, it is in excess of 20 feet long!! "
Thats well enough to put anyone unfamilier with sump off attempting it - thinking it might just be a duck. Anyone who knows the sump - would know well enough that it would be virtually suicide to try and free dive it due to the tight and awkward nature of the passage.
D
Downer
Guest
Not only labels for sumps. We need labels for pitches too. Nothing worse than trying to bottom Alum Pot on a 6m ladder thinking you're in Swildon's One - like the Ultimate Caving crew did.
A
AMW
Guest
Line tagging as you say is very much part of cave diving, with line tags giving the route, junction tags and also in out markings at every 5M or 10M (yellow/black normally).
Andrew.
bubba
Administrator
Chris J said:
I didn't see the program but perhaps you can assume that there was a huge team of saftely / rescue people standing by out of camera shot. Most novices i've ever taken would baulk at a free-dive, although that said my friend Geoff did do Swildon's sump one with me on his first ever proper caving trip.
D
Downer
Guest
I myself did it on my second ever "proper" trip. (I'd been in the cave for about 30 minutes once before, but I'd wimped out at the ten minute mark and we hadn't even got to the Twenty, I'm not a naturally brave person.) Later, I tagged along on the Short Round Trip organised by a friend and half way round discovered there was a novice in the party, duh. No problems getting her through Sump One, though one might argue she didn't have much choice if she wanted to get out. Maybe I went through first and couldn't hear the screamsbubba said:
But in all these cases, including the TV program, the caver was accompanied by other, more experienced cavers. It would be terrible if the program encouraged people to think "If Kate Humble can do it, anyone can" which is probably true, and "so I can do it on my own and without any guidance", which is a dangerous non-sequitur.Well, the programme did also show people going through sump 2, which certainly looked rather more likely to put off beginners from random sump-diving.
It'd be interesting to know how the KMC crew came to plan their trip, and how experienced they were. Did they read about it on the internet, buy a book, or get advice from someone?
It'd be interesting to know how the KMC crew came to plan their trip, and how experienced they were. Did they read about it on the internet, buy a book, or get advice from someone?
M
MSD
Guest
Point taken about out tags being used by cave divers. However this is a special case and the tags are only ever seen by people who (hopefully) know what they are doing. Labelling a siphon with information about how to free-dive it is, in my opinion, quite likely to lead to more incidents, as it could encourage ill-equipped and experienced people to "give it a go".
Mark
Mark
Pitlamp
Well-known member
I think a better option might be to rearrange the line in the sump leading to Mud River so it is belayed underwater and thus unlikely to be found by a free diver.
Literally two days before this incident happened I'd submitted a very brief article on safe free diving, in the form of a short list of bullet points, to the CPC Record (due to be published next month). Talk about co-incidence! Anyway, I just thought I'd mention that this will soon be available in the hopes that it might be of use to somebody.
Literally two days before this incident happened I'd submitted a very brief article on safe free diving, in the form of a short list of bullet points, to the CPC Record (due to be published next month). Talk about co-incidence! Anyway, I just thought I'd mention that this will soon be available in the hopes that it might be of use to somebody.
M
MSD
Guest
I agree, this is a much better option for sumps that you DON'T want free divers to attempt.
Mark
Mark
SamT
Moderator
MSD said:
...was not something I suggested .
just the name of the sump (and perhaps length) would have been enough to prevent this incident.
agreed about the dive line - but what about sumps that fluctuate in depth - such as the streamway sumps in baggers. laying the line under the water during the lowest levels would render it unfindable during high water conditions.
Perhaps pitlamp was being specific to Mud river which is perhaps static (I dont know).
M
MSD
Guest
Not really a problem in most cases, so long the diver concerned knows. You can belay an extra jump reel at the surface and reel out to where the line proper starts. This is the usual situation in many big surface resurgences abroad, since the absence of a line tends to stop open water divers diving in the "cavern zone" (where there is still daylight) straying into the cave zone.
Mark
Mark
Just heard about this incident following return from hols & a belatedly received voicemail from the CRO....
The lad involved is IMHO extremely lucky!
I replaced the old line in the Mud River Sumps a few years ago when a re-examnation of Deep Rising (Sump 3) seemed in order. The lines in the sumps had all been in their for ages and were old 4mm polyprop orange/ peat stained/ brown. I replaced them with yellow plastic-coated washing line (which stands up to abrasion really well) which is approx 3mm in diameter and quite slippy to gloved hands. The line was tagged with distance every 5m. It was also rebelayed in one or two places with white plastic bog pipe rammed between floor and roof (as it is low at the edges of the bedding) or shoved into silt banks on the floor. As I remember it there was a bend or two in the direction of the passage before it emerges in air.
The sump's one good feature for errant freedivers is that the roof is flat and smooth.
I would have thought that after 2m (when the first proper Rowten sump pops up into air) I would have been thinking "Hang on! This can't be right." and turned round rather than continuing for another 28m.....
On a trip free-diving the (proper) Rowten sumps a few years ago, I missed the airbell between the 3m & 9m sumps (spotted the knot of the line going up into the bell, but misread it as a repair knot!) After a few more metres, I thought to myself "Hang on. This can't be right" and turned around.
Maybe it was the cold water and lack of hood/ mask that clouded his judgement!
But I for one would rather "hammer my tongue wafer thin with a meat tenderiser, then staple it to the floor with a croquet hoop" than free dive that sump!
If the lad concerned is at Hidden Earth this weekend, introduce yourself. I'd like to buy you a celebratory beer & we can have a natter.
At the end of the day, all's well that ends well.
Cheers
Scoff
The lad involved is IMHO extremely lucky!
I replaced the old line in the Mud River Sumps a few years ago when a re-examnation of Deep Rising (Sump 3) seemed in order. The lines in the sumps had all been in their for ages and were old 4mm polyprop orange/ peat stained/ brown. I replaced them with yellow plastic-coated washing line (which stands up to abrasion really well) which is approx 3mm in diameter and quite slippy to gloved hands. The line was tagged with distance every 5m. It was also rebelayed in one or two places with white plastic bog pipe rammed between floor and roof (as it is low at the edges of the bedding) or shoved into silt banks on the floor. As I remember it there was a bend or two in the direction of the passage before it emerges in air.
The sump's one good feature for errant freedivers is that the roof is flat and smooth.
I would have thought that after 2m (when the first proper Rowten sump pops up into air) I would have been thinking "Hang on! This can't be right." and turned round rather than continuing for another 28m.....
On a trip free-diving the (proper) Rowten sumps a few years ago, I missed the airbell between the 3m & 9m sumps (spotted the knot of the line going up into the bell, but misread it as a repair knot!) After a few more metres, I thought to myself "Hang on. This can't be right" and turned around.
Maybe it was the cold water and lack of hood/ mask that clouded his judgement!
But I for one would rather "hammer my tongue wafer thin with a meat tenderiser, then staple it to the floor with a croquet hoop" than free dive that sump!
If the lad concerned is at Hidden Earth this weekend, introduce yourself. I'd like to buy you a celebratory beer & we can have a natter.
At the end of the day, all's well that ends well.
Cheers
Scoff
