KMC - Roof Tunnel Pitch

[Pitlamp]

I think this topic has cropped up before because I seem to remember posting something about the old acro that was once in there - and the iron ladder which appeared briefly but got removed.

If the CNCC wants to "do something" then my preference would be for the tat to be removed permanently. If some people genuinely can't deal with that upward pitch (and for safety reasons this may be a perfectly sensible decision) then they have the option of a quick pre-rig before pulling through down whichever pothole up on the bench.

Should we really reduce the difficulty to the level of the least competent or should we encourage people to aspire to gain greater competence before taking on a particular trip? The latter brings conservation benefits by letting natural obstacles reduce the pressure on a popular system.

Then again mine's just one small voice among many . . . . .

 

[paul]

Then again mine's just one small voice among many . . . . .

I'm another small voice in agreement with you.

 

[cap n chris]

A well known caver's words echo in my ears, "Litter should be removed from caves".

 

[droid]

Then again mine's just one small voice among many . . . . .

I'm another small voice in agreement with you.

Loud voice from small person added.

 

[damian]

It would be a pain to say maypole the pitch in Drenen to get to the time machine!

Think you mean Daren.

 

[IanWalker]

Rig it as the climb with fig 8's for clipping in and not for srt, that way it can be free climbed and have a belay for safety and those that would like to srt can rig a rope.

if free-climbers feel they need a pre-rigged rope then they can go into valley entrance and rig one themselves, just like people who want a pre-rigged SRT rope or a pre-rigged ladder. safety doesn't come into it. i recognise the usefulness of a knotted rope for climbers though.

if the vote is to have no rope then all ropes from all systems should be removed so visiting parties can rig it themselves for the great achievement.

spurious. but following your logic, if we were to extend this one situation to all pitches in all systems i would rather all ropes were removed than find every pitch in every cave in the world pre-rigged with a knotted handline.

ian.

 

[langcliffe]

if the vote is to have no rope then all ropes from all systems should be removed so visiting parties can rig it themselves for the great achievement.

I don't follow this logic.

 

[Cave Mapper]

If it's going to be permanently rigged, then why not do it in a way that's good for free-climbing and OK for SRT?

If it's going to be de-rigged, then you need to make sure everyone knows. But, lets not have anything like those signs near Bull Pot Farm announcing the removal of the fixed ladders that were still there ten years later (the signs that is). Are they still there, it's probably 15 years now?

 

[Cave Mapper]

I don't have a strong view either way on this one. On the one hand I don't like our caves being despoiled and diminished with unnecessary fixed aids. But on the other hand, the Simpsons/Swinsto pull-through trips are essentially man-made creations, and exceptionally fine ones too. The permanent bolts on the pull-though pitches and the man-made Valley Entrance itself make those trips what they are. A bit of decent permanent rigging on the up-pitch is perfectly in keeping with the rest of the route.

What is clear is that the current rope should not be left in place if it's dangerous.

 

[Glenn]

Many thanks for the comments, the majority of which I think/hope reflect the opinion that there should not be a fixed aid traverse installed on this pitch, so we will not install one. Today we replaced the P38 at the start of the traverse with an ECO (the very last ECO!). We removed the staple from the ledge (which appears to have been held in place with car body filler) and removed the tat.  I'll post some pictures later.

 

[langcliffe]

(the very last ECO!).

Not quite true, Glenn, as I have found one. Shall I drop it off at Bernies?

 

[Pitlamp]

Many thanks for the comments, the majority of which I think/hope reflect the opinion that there should not be a fixed aid traverse installed on this pitch, so we will not install one. Today we replaced the P38 at the start of the traverse with an ECO (the very last ECO!). We removed the staple from the ledge (which appears to have been held in place with car body filler) and removed the tat.  I'll post some pictures later.

A ever Glenn, thank you for your (carefully considered) efforts on cavers' behalf.

 

[Glenn]

(the very last ECO!).

Not quite true, Glenn, as I have found one. Shall I drop it off at Bernies?

Hi Langcliffe, if you want to keep it as a memento to your contribution to the scheme, please do, otherwise, we can collect it from Bernies. Thanks too, Pitlamp, for your comments.

Yesterday we wanted to evaluate our new toy as an option for removing compression anchors;

The pointy end is inserted first to raise the anchor clear of the rock;

 
and then it is simply jacked out;

The tool was a great success, but it is quite heavy and a bit on a monster to man handle in a cave....
We also removed the staple;

We drilled away a bit of the "resin", but it came out quite easily using the new toy. The "resin" looked very much like car body filler, was very soft, and had not really adhered to the stainless steel staple....

 

[glyders]

Two thoughts for consideration:
1. Does the presence of fixed aid encourage people into the system? I am thinking of people going in through Valley rather than a pull-through. You could argue that encouraging people into the system was pro or con...
2. I have to admit the reassurance of some form of fixed aid given previous experience of having my pre-rigged stuff go awol while I was inside.

 

[dunc]

1. Does the presence of fixed aid encourage people into the system? I am thinking of people going in through Valley rather than a pull-through. You could argue that encouraging people into the system was pro or con...

Depends on the type of aid as to whether or not it would. A fixed ladder might do as it would allow novices fairly easy access whereas SRT rope would not make any difference (IMO), but as previously said, it's so easy and quick to take own gear in (not that much gear is needed!) that I doubt it would encourage groups in to Valley as opposed to elsewhere..

2. I have to admit the reassurance of some form of fixed aid given previous experience of having my pre-rigged stuff go awol while I was inside.

Maybe an over-zealous cave-conservationist or of course a complete twat or just an innocent mistake - any of those could apply to many a cave and pitch, should we put fixed aids on all pitches where gear has been removed for one reason or another?

 

[AA Speleo]

Many thanks for the comments, the majority of which I think/hope reflect the opinion that there should not be a fixed aid traverse installed on this pitch, so we will not install one. Today we replaced the P38 at the start of the traverse with an ECO (the very last ECO!). We removed the staple from the ledge (which appears to have been held in place with car body filler) and removed the tat.  I'll post some pictures later.

I have a few (P Hangers) if you want them, if they are of any use I will bring them with me to the Rescue Conference next w/e.

 

[glyders]

1. Does the presence of fixed aid encourage people into the system? I am thinking of people going in through Valley rather than a pull-through. You could argue that encouraging people into the system was pro or con...

Depends on the type of aid as to whether or not it would. A fixed ladder might do as it would allow novices fairly easy access whereas SRT rope would not make any difference (IMO), but as previously said, it's so easy and quick to take own gear in (not that much gear is needed!) that I doubt it would encourage groups in to Valley as opposed to elsewhere..

2. I have to admit the reassurance of some form of fixed aid given previous experience of having my pre-rigged stuff go awol while I was inside.

Maybe an over-zealous cave-conservationist or of course a complete twat or just an innocent mistake - any of those could apply to many a cave and pitch, should we put fixed aids on all pitches where gear has been removed for one reason or another?

I was thinking more about fixed ladder in the first case (I seem to remember seeing mention of it in either this thread or a similar one).
The second case was more of a rumination. The time it happened to me in KMC I never saw the kit again but was able to go up fixed rope (could have gone along traverse if it wasn't there but the group would have had to wait a lot longer then). The time it happened in Swildons my stuff was found nicely packed away in my kit bag at the top of the pitch when another party came along after I'd been waiting about an hour.

My comments were thoughts that may have lead to discussion. My opinion is maintain traverse but dispose of fixed rope at pitch.

 

[martinm]

My comments were thoughts that may have lead to discussion. My opinion is maintain traverse but dispose of fixed rope at pitch.

I've held off commenting on this so far cos I don't get  up the Dales much these days, unfortunately. 

But haven't parties been trapped on ledges at the side of the KMC streamway during floods? In fact I'm think I'm right in thinking that one person got swept into the downstream sump. (I was there during a rescue by the CRO during the late '80s.) The traverse line would seem a prudent thing to have at least, if it would allow parties to gain the top of the pitch in this situation... Mel.

 

[al]

Glen - Interesting P38 remover!
A couple of questions:-
Does it ever bring away big saucers of rock with the P38?
Can it be used for spits (assuming an old hanger has been inserted)?


(That's it! - now Paul will have to shift the thread to Techniques.  )

 

[Fulk]

mmilner:

In fact I'm think I'm right in thinking that one person got swept into the downstream sump.

To the best of my knowledge, two people have been swept into the downstream KMC sump and died there ? one in 1990 and the other in 1993.