KMC - Roof Tunnel Pitch

[martinm]

In fact I'm think I'm right in thinking that one person got swept into the downstream sump.

To the best of my knowledge, two people have been swept into the downstream KMC sump and died there ? one in 1990 and the other in 1993.

Scary.  I rest my case. I think Glenns original post about the CNCC monitored traverse line would be the best solution, allowing people to choose how to rig the pitch itself, but with the traverse line available for bad conditions. IMHO.

 

[Glenn]

Glen - Interesting P38 remover!
A couple of questions:-
Does it ever bring away big saucers of rock with the P38?
Can it be used for spits (assuming an old hanger has been inserted)?

It did not remove any "saucers of rock" as the anchors we removed were installed in solid limestone - I can see where you are coming from though, but really, anchors should not be installed in anything other than good rock. Spits; depends on the state of the thread, if the thread is sound and survives the forces applied, I would think that they will pop out - but we have not tried that (yet).

Today we tested the anchors installed (in March 1998) in a long term test bed near Yordas middle entrance. The thinking was to see how freeze/thaw conditions over many years affected the resin bond. A report will be on the CNCC website in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Glenn]

In fact I'm think I'm right in thinking that one person got swept into the downstream sump.

To the best of my knowledge, two people have been swept into the downstream KMC sump and died there ? one in 1990 and the other in 1993.

Scary.  I rest my case. I think Glenns original post about the CNCC monitored traverse line would be the best solution, allowing people to choose how to rig the pitch itself, but with the traverse line available for bad conditions. IMHO.

We decided not to install a managed traverse and rope due to the consensus on this forum - which is that if you are doing a pull through, rig this pitch first. If the consensus should change, we can install the traverse.

 

[Fulk]

I'm getting a bit confused here; could someone enlighten me?

As I understand it (!) the original suggestion for a traverse line was for a short traverse line that would enable one to get off the pitch-head safely (having somehow got up it), but later references seem to be to the 'CRO traverse' along the length of the Master Cave.

My personal opinion it that it would be a traversty (or should that be traverse-ty ) to leave . . . . what 150 m + of rope permanently strung along the length of the Master Cave ? if that is, indeed, one of the options being considered, and I haven't completely misconstrued what is being said here.

 

[Glenn]

Hi Fulk, please see my original post. The proposal is for a plastic coated steel cable traverse from the left side of the pitch (looking out into the master cave) onto the ledge, and then a 11mm rope rigged either for SRT of climbing.

 

[Fulk]

Scary.  I rest my case. I think Glenns original post about the CNCC monitored traverse line would be the best solution, allowing people to choose how to rig the pitch itself, but with the traverse line available for bad conditions. IMHO.

Sure Glenn . . . but the above post ('the traverse line available for bad conditions') seems (to me) to imply the 'CRO traverse', not just a short traverse above the pitch.

Sorry if you think  I'm being obtuse, butI'm just trying to clarify exactly what people mean.

 

[martinm]

Scary.  I rest my case. I think Glenns original post about the CNCC monitored traverse line would be the best solution, allowing people to choose how to rig the pitch itself, but with the traverse line available for bad conditions. IMHO.

Sure Glenn . . . but the above post ('the traverse line available for bad conditions') seems (to me) to imply the 'CRO traverse', not just a short traverse above the pitch.

Sorry if you think  I'm being obtuse, but I'm just trying to clarify exactly what people mean.

Sorry, that's probably just me confusing the issue. It mentioned "replace the current rope traverse with a 2M plastic coated galvanised steel cable, plus a further cable to provide a safe traverse to the obvious ledge." I thought that might be meant for peeps to able to escape a flooded streamway. 

 

[Pitlamp]

With absolutely no disrespect to anyone, maybe the best option is to bypass any confusion and leave the cave as nature intended it?

 

[bograt]

With absolutely no disrespect to anyone, maybe the best option is to bypass any confusion and leave the cave as nature intended it?

You mean sealed up with glacial cr*p?

 

[graham]

With absolutely no disrespect to anyone, maybe the best option is to bypass any confusion and leave the cave as nature intended it?

That option, if it ever existed, vanished when the entrance was dug out.

This is the classic conservation question that few people ever pose properly. When you declare the state in which you wish to see a given natural feature conserved you are making a judgement which must take into account the fact that, in the UK at least, no part of the environment has been left untouched by Man. So what you are doing is declaring that you are happy with this much intervention but wish to see no more. This judgement can only ever be subjective, but that is fine if you clearly understand what you are doing and can articulate your position properly.

For one thing, unless you count Glenn as part of nature, then all the P hangers have to go. As does the diving line.

 

[Fulk]

unless you count Glenn as part of nature

He's not supernatural, is he?

 

[graham]

unless you count Glenn as part of nature

He's not supernatural, is he?

When he gets my insurance turned around so quickly, I sometimes wonder. 

 

[Pitlamp]

With absolutely no disrespect to anyone, maybe the best option is to bypass any confusion and leave the cave as nature intended it?

That option, if it ever existed, vanished when the entrance was dug out.

This is the classic conservation question that few people ever pose properly. When you declare the state in which you wish to see a given natural feature conserved you are making a judgement which must take into account the fact that, in the UK at least, no part of the environment has been left untouched by Man. So what you are doing is declaring that you are happy with this much intervention but wish to see no more. This judgement can only ever be subjective, but that is fine if you clearly understand what you are doing and can articulate your position properly.

For one thing, unless you count Glenn as part of nature, then all the P hangers have to go. As does the diving line.

Graham - I'd have thought someone like you might have supported the spirit of what I was trying to convey. I'll rephrase the final part of the point I tried to make: "leave the cave as near as possible to how nature intended it."

 

[Glenn]

unless you count Glenn as part of nature

He's not supernatural, is he?

Could be....

 

[Glenn]

unless you count Glenn as part of nature

He's not supernatural, is he?

When he gets my insurance turned around so quickly, I sometimes wonder. 

but many hands make light work....

 

[graham]

Graham - I'd have thought someone like you might have supported the spirit of what I was trying to convey. I'll rephrase the final part of the point I tried to make: "leave the cave as near as possible to how nature intended it."

The spirit? Oh I do. But, it's a tricky thing to capture, as everybody can have a different idea of what is meant by as near as possible A group leader who always has novices with him may have a very different view of necessary change to a purist hard-cave explorer.

In any case, philosophically speaking it is impossible to state quite what nature intended, partially because nature does not have an intention, as such, and partially because the environment is a dynamic and ever-changing thing.

To take Bograt's point, there are those who would argue that any dig, any dig at all, is an unnecessary change to nature. I have heard this point of view argued in parts of the US where there is still plenty of open cave to explore.

 

[Pitlamp]

If I wanted to engage in philosophy I'd probably be on a different website.

Attempting analogy with digging is unhelpful. Digging may be the only way of accessing a new cave but the Valley Entrance pitch can easily be negotiated without significant modification to the cave. Very different situation.

You know exactly what I'm driving at Graham - or have you taken up "trolling" or summat?

 

[graham]

You know exactly what I'm driving at Graham - or have you taken up "trolling" or summat?

No, Pitlamp, I do not know exactly what you are driving at and I could get bloody annoyed to be accused of trolling. I have been an advocate of cave conservation for a hell of a long time and I have learnt that if you want to do the best by our caves you have to be very clear about what you are trying to do and very clear about how you wish to achieve those aims.

Opinions are like arseholes. Everybody has one.

 

[Pitlamp]

I only asked Graham - I didn't "accuse".

I'd not want to wind you up or anything because you've been particularly helpful to me in the past.