ladder & rope

[Judi Durber]

How about one made in the style of an etrier, but constructed out of dyneema?

After watching a climbing video where they used these I wondered if they were any good for caving?  :-\

http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Aid-Climbing/Etriers/Speed-Ladder#.VVeu5HlFDIU

yes very pricey

 

[ah147]

They're not ladders as in caving ladders, they are used for aid climbing, I prefer them over the metal stepped ones some cavers prefer.


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[Fulk]

After watching a climbing video where they used these I wondered if they were any good for caving?  :-\

http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Aid-Climbing/Etriers/Speed-Ladder#.VVeu5HlFDIU

yes very pricey

Well, ?52?50p for 1.78 m . . . . .that's ?294?94p for 10 m. Can't you just see cavers falling over themselves to pay that?

 

[cap n chris]

Those of us who were caving pre-SRT in the 60's and 70's have been quite amused by these earnest observations re ladder & line techniques. Fulk's anecdotes were all too common occurrences and you had to stay lucky! Cap'n Chris's academic discourse had me thinking how it would work on the 80m Black Rift in Black Shiver Pot  ; 

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.

 

[Mike Hopley]

I would prefer to change the word "beginners" to "anyone" - it's hard to define what constitutes a beginner.

I agree, "beginner" was the wrong word. All I meant was this:

If I'm on a trip exclusively composed of very experienced cavers, and some of them don't want a lifeline, I won't have a massive argument with them. It's just not worth it -- they've made up their minds long ago and it's not my responsibility to fix their dumb habits.

Whereas if I'm in a group with some less experienced cavers, I will not let it slide. At the least, I will tell the less experienced cavers that they are watching an experienced person do something extremely stupid.

 

[droid]

A somewhat provocative and rather pompous post there, Mr Hopley.

You are p[robably right not to argue with 'experienced cavers'. Most of the ones I know would put your hat on straight.

This is an enjoyable debate and doesn't need unpleasant comments like 'dumb' and 'extremely stupid'.

Obligatory 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Before this gets out of hand, let me say that Mike is a nice guy, and I really cannot imagine him being provocative or pompous!

 

[ah147]

I would prefer to change the word "beginners" to "anyone" - it's hard to define what constitutes a beginner.

I agree, "beginner" was the wrong word. All I meant was this:

If I'm on a trip exclusively composed of very experienced cavers, and some of them don't want a lifeline, I won't have a massive argument with them. It's just not worth it -- they've made up their minds long ago and it's not my responsibility to fix their dumb habits.

Whereas if I'm in a group with some less experienced cavers, I will not let it slide. At the least, I will tell the less experienced cavers that they are watching an experienced person do something extremely stupid.

I think this was a well composed reply.

"Dumb" and "extremely stupid" are the perfect word. How else do you explain climbjng a pitch on an object which is known to break randomly, without you doing anything wrong, with absolutely no back up?


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[cap n chris]

Whereas if I'm in a group with some less experienced cavers, I will not let it slide. At the least, I will tell the less experienced cavers that they are watching an experienced person do something extremely stupid.

I usually (in hushed tones) just say they are witnessing an experienced person doing something extremely risky, with no back-up in the event of ladder failure, and hang around long enough to check all is well before continuing with our own trip.

 

[Smiley Alan]

thankyou  for all the replys .  looks like im  not the only one woried with ladders .  :spank: :spank: :spank:

 

[Mike Hopley]

Yes, maybe "extremely risky" is more diplomatic than "extremely stupid". No offence intended.

Nevertheless I'm more concerned about safeguarding the inexperienced than not offending people. Sometimes I think people don't get their priorities right.

There have been many situations -- in caves, in mountains, elsewhere -- where I've said something sharp that has helped prevent an accident. I've also been on the receiving end of that, and recognised the person giving me a bollocking was doing the right thing. Sometimes being too polite is dangerous. Just a thought.

 

[droid]

Point taken.

Although I'd shy away from the term 'extremely'. Maybe because I'm old enought to remember a time when ladders were the norm, I have to say the 'breaking randomly' bit is something I only ever heard about second-hand, never first hand.

Likewise belay failure.

I only ever saw one accident and that was self inflicted. The stats for SRT are somewhat worse in my experience.

However, Mike, you were calling quite a few cavers who I know have achieved great things in canin 'extremely stupid' and that was a bit much for my reformed character.