ladder & rope

[steviet_scg]

I do agree that lifelines should *always* be used with a ladder and nobody should have to ask for one.

As I said, I haven't twice. Both situations the ladder was essentially a handline though, rather than a proper pitch.

The reason I remember both occasions is it still felt very very wrong to not be using a line!

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Just for information - certainly not nitpicking here - there's at least one  accident (Slaughter Stream Cave, c.1992) caused when a ladder was used as a handline and the belay then failed - resulting in a small fall but accompanied by some big bits of limestone - and several fractures. Ironically the caver involved was very very safety conscious and would never have climbed a ladder without a line. I think his reflection was that if it had just been a handline he would have climbed down the rock and just used the line for a bit of support but because it was a ladder he put his weight on it fully and everything went south pretty quickly.

Steve

 

[mch]

The thing about non-line users saying "it's my choice" is that if they fall or the ladder or belay breaks, it isn't just they who are affected. The chances are that they will sustain some injury and their mates or the local CRO will have to haul them out. It's just plain selfish, imho.

 

[nearlywhite]

Actually, now I think about, he might have been climbing a rope not a ladder, but the principle is much the same and I took note of it. I also know someone who only fell off a ladder maybe only a metre, and broke both ankles which made a big impact on her life for perhaps a year, or possibly more.

This is very common in the wider (overground) world with fixed ladders particularly - the way the force is delivered through the ankle can lead to nasty fracture patterns e.g. Trimalleolar, Calcaneal Fractures. Best avoided!

 

[darren]

It is interesting that almost everyone has said they always use a lifeline, but often at Swildons 20 there is a ladder without a life line there.

Just saying.

 

[Kenilworth]

The thing about non-line users saying "it's my choice" is that if they fall or the ladder or belay breaks, it isn't just they who are affected. The chances are that they will sustain some injury and their mates or the local CRO will have to haul them out. It's just plain selfish, imho.

"The chances are..." One of those phrases that means too little to be useful. The chances are that everything that can possibly happen will happen. Our responsibility is to evaluate the specific chances for a particular situation and act accordingly.

 

[Duncan S]

It is interesting that almost everyone has said they always use a lifeline, but often at Swildons 20 there is a ladder without a life line there.

Just saying.

I've seen that done, but  the ladder is usually belayed to a second anchor point, so should in theory be a little safer.
However, I was chatting in the pub at the weekend and heard a first hand story of well used ladder failing resulting in a fall; it can happen.

 

[cap n chris]

Belaying a ladder from more than one anchor doesn't really increase the safety since the ladder is WAY the weakest part of any system and will fail long before an anchor; but rigging the lifeline from more than one anchor/belay is established standard practice since a single bolt may fail especially since the loading on a doubled line is potentially quite massive. Rigging a safety line from a single anchor breaks the cardinal rule, "never trust your life to a single bolt".

I have had an (almost new) ladder break without warning. Age doesn't come into it, so it seems. The cardinal rule could perhaps benefit from revising.... "Never trust your life to a single bolt; never trust a ladder. Ever."

Falling unlined from ladder pitches of 10m or less used to be the single largest cause of death and injury in UK caving. It's probably only because lifelining is thankfully commonplace and ladder use is dwindling that this is no longer the case.

 

[Fulk]

I started caving before SRT caught on in Britain, so we all climbed ladders; many (perhaps most?) cavers would climb short ladders without a lifeline ? I know I certainly did.
I remember one day I was out wandering round Ingleborough with a pal and we came across a ?new? hole ? ?Hmm, that must be that new discovery . . . what was it, Tatham something or other??. So we set off down to have a look. When we reached the first pitch there was a ladder and line in place, so we continued the descent. When we reached the second pitch, there was a ladder with no line, so we went down that as well. Shortly afterwards we heard voices approaching, and decided to get out. We both got up the second pitch with no problem, but on the first pitch I got into a real mess on account of having started to climb on the wrong side of the ladder, as a result of which near the top I got squashed between the ladder and the wall, and had to somehow get round onto the other side of the ladder (which is easier said than done). During the course of my manoeuvrings I managed to insert my foot up to the knee between rungs, and even years later I can remember thinking ?It?s a good job this didn?t happen on the other pitch ? at least I?ve got a line here?. I think that I just let go, and dangled there (on a wait belt) while I got my foot out of the rungs.

Nevertheless, I still continued to climb (short) pitches on occasion without a line, but what stopped me was meeting a guy in a wheelchair at a caving conference, and when I asked him what happened he told me that he?d fallen down the Valley Entrance Pitch when the ladder broke. He was about half-way up so he ?only? felI a few feet ? but ?I?ve not walked since?, he said. That?s when I stopped climbing ladders without a line.

A close scrutiny of the CRO statistics revealed that up until about the mid-1980s, the ?type? accident they dealt with in the Dales was falls, most of them being people who fell off ladders through not using a lifeline ? or not using one properly; since then, falls have given way to floods as the most common type of call-out in the Dales, as ladders have been superseded by SRT.

 

[MJenkinson]

Please don't shout, I am a humble northerner and not particularly au fait in the ways of ladders.....but...

How exactly are you supposed to rig a ladder and line; I keep hearing about using more than one bolt for this and that and I can't picture it.

Does anyone have a pic of what they would consider "best practice" on say the Swildons 20? Usually we have the ladder clipped to one bolt and thr lifeline running through a crab / pulley attached to the other?

 

[global_s]

Please don't shout, I am a humble northerner and not particularly au fait in the ways of ladders.....but...

How exactly are you supposed to rig a ladder and line; I keep hearing about using more than one bolt for this and that and I can't picture it.

Does anyone have a pic of what they would consider "best practice" on say the Swildons 20? Usually we have the ladder clipped to one bolt and thr lifeline running through a crab / pulley attached to the other?

Not been in Swildons, but I tend to set up a belay point like I might on a top rope climb...that is equalising two anchors and would belay from the loop created with the ladder clipped to the anchor that was in the best position for the climb.

 

[cap n chris]

Both can be belayed by a second caver at the base of the pitch, if you are not planning on using leader SRT progression. Use of harness/sling-belt combo enables relatively pain-free hoisting for incapacitated caver and also serves to minimise the likelihood of breaking ribs in the event of a ladder failure or slip from the rungs.

Not best practice or something you'll see in any book anywhere (yet), sorry!

 

[global_s]

Where is that taken from Chris?

 

[cap n chris]

My head. Notes I drew up.

 

[global_s]

Nice one...I'm adding those to my notes as I practice for L2. Can I be cheeky and ask for a slightly higher resolution copy as the text isn't that clear in those ones?

 

[cap n chris]

PM me and I'll provide a download link.

 

[pwhole]

I'm not a fan of ladders at all, but have often wondered, for those who are fans, why they can't just be made better/stronger, so they're not the weak link in the system? Or at least of equivalent strength? Granted they may end up being a bit heavier and/or a bit more expensive but it seems that if a known piece of kit is potentially lethal without warning, then it ought to be improved or rejected as unsafe. For example, couldn't the wire run all the way through the rungs, rather than just fixed in at the tips? And use a better material than ally? Those C-clips are meant be dodgy too aren't they? Surely a really cool, safer caving ladder could be designed in this day and age, if the technique is going to be preserved for the future?

 

[Burt]

How about one made in the style of an etrier, but constructed out of dyneema?

pricey, but very light and would roll up nice and small.

 

[richardg]

In my limited experience of ladders (basically in Zumemrzet) we have always used a line (Swildons 20, Shatter Pot and the climb up to the Ladder Dig series in GB.  Also when we have used ladders in P8 for novices (never again!) we always used a line.

If you don't use ladders to take beginners down a cave with short pitches, any longer what do use instead?

 

[Fulk]

I think that pwhole makes some interesting and valid points, but here's another anecdote:

Notwithstanding earlier comments, I don?t think that ladders used to break very often, but I did once witness something that was potentially as disastrous. We were coming out of Strans Gill and I climbed out first; we didn?t use to bother with a line on the first two pitches, I think we felt that you could hardly fall off the ladder for the first few feet of P-1 as it was so narrow (though below it bells out, like a bottle, so I guess you could have come off there ? but it was ?only? 5 m or so). Anyway, we?d belayed the ladder to a bar jammed across the entrance slot in the bed of the stream, using a tape sling (tied, not sewn). I was gazing down at the entrance when my friend started to climb the ladder, and before my eyes the tape knot undid itself, and the whole lot slid off down the pitch. After a few seconds of stunned silence I heard drifting up from the hole ?Your f****** knot?s come undone?, to which I replied ?My f****** knots don?t come undone, it must be yours?. Anyway, I?d dragged a rope behind me to pull out the tackle, so I was able to pull up the ladder and re-rig it . . . nevertheless, the possibilities for a serious accident are obvious.

 

[speliox]

Those of us who were caving pre-SRT in the 60's and 70's have been quite amused by these earnest observations re ladder & line techniques. Fulk's anecdotes were all too common occurrences and you had to stay lucky! Cap'n Chris's academic discourse had me thinking how it would work on the 80m Black Rift in Black Shiver Pot  ;