Ladders Or SRT ?

[The Old Ruminator]

I believe the Wessex still make electron ladders, but don't know the cost. Of course you still need at least the same amount of rope (if not double).

SRT is only viable if everyone has their own kit...

Mike

Yes a member of the Wessex does make ladders. He is also a member of team Vurley. Just bought two 10m laddders from him with 4mm cable at I think ?160 with a spreader.

 

[JasonC]

The last big pitch I did was Alum Pot Main Shaft, which took me (an OAP who had open-heart surgery not so long since) 12 minutes to the rebelay (that's ~60 m).

12 minutes!

I was bemused when people on this thread started saying that SRT is slower than ladder & line.

So now we know why - all the SRT routes are clogged up by sodding pensioners!

What Fulk didn't say was whether 12 minutes was prussiking from the bottom or abbing from the top 

 

[Fulk]

Nice one, Jason 

 

[Alex]

I have no issue with using rigid ladders as in climbing them, as you generally don't need to be lifelined and the bloody things don't swing about (unless they have not been secured correctly). However, some make take issue with them for conservation issues. (dig's are obviously fine).

 

[BradW]

I have no issue with using rigid ladders as in climbing them, as you generally don't need to be lifelined ......

I believe this is a dangerous assumption to make.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Vurley entrance is some 9m of rigid ladder. I have never seen anyone life lined there so maybe it is bad practice. As I now seem to be doing a few solo trips anyway I guess the bad practice is compounded. We still class our " cave " as a "dig " so the fixed ladder there and at four other places will remain. Not every likes that though. The grey area remains. When does a dig turn into a cave ? Do such fixed aids such as platforms and fixed ladders remain or should they be removed so " pure " caving can take place ? I think Ladder Dig in GB had an iron ladder for years but I think it is gone now.St Cuthberts has a fixed iron ladder. Stanton's stemples (sic ) still remain on the climb at the end of Golgotha in Reservoir Hole in fact we re cemented them recently. I guess any fixed aid could lead to legal action if it became faulty or ill maintained so maybe one puts one self in an invidious position by fixing them.

Constructing Ascension platform and fixed ladder in Reservoir Hole.





Re fixing the climbing stemples in Golgotha.



Although there has been a bit of topic drift. ( I never actually envisaged adding any more than the first image ) the concepts are all related. ie What is the best way to climb up and down in a cave ? What is acceptable and more importantly is a fixed aid installer liable for legal action if that aid fails and somebody gets hurt. No doubt the latter has been discussed here before but I would welcome a refresher. I suppose whatever the answer is it would also apply to a faulty set bolt on SRT.

Another " oldie " pitch head and platform Lamb leer c 1970.

 

[pwhole]

We've left the rigid ladders in the top half of our main dig for the simple reason it's far quicker to climb those than prussick. We just clip the chest ascender onto the main rope and then change over to rope-climbing at the top of the ladders, which don't reach the surface for safety reasons. Though they don't look it here, both ladders are somewhat overhanging, so definitely not safe to do without a lifeline as the base of the lower ladder is still 20m above the floor.

 

[Mark Wright]

Though they don't look it here, both ladders are somewhat overhanging, so definitely not safe to do without a lifeline as the base of the lower ladder is still 20m above the floor.

I wonder what Fred Dibnah would have had to say about that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W_7uIapoHc

Mark

 

[Mark Wright]

And another, this time really overhanging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R3-YwDZrzg

Mark

 

[Alex]

Its generally up to the person using the fixed aid to check it before using it. Heck if legal action was taken every-time a bit failed "the old man" would be a bit out of pocket by now when it comes to mines!

 

[Fulk]

BradW:

I have no issue with using rigid ladders as in climbing them, as you generally don't need to be lifelined ......

I believe this is a dangerous assumption to make.

Well, last year we visited Szepesi-L?ner-Barlangrendszer, a cave in Hungary that has 14 pitches, all rigged with in-situ ladders, the longest going on for 20 m. I have to admit that on the way out, after several hours underground, I felt that a lifeline would have been nice on the longest ones, at least . . . but I guess Fred Dibnah puts me to shame!

 

[Ian Ball]

Fred Dibnah! Commentating a climb which is proper heart racing stuff as if it was a Sunday stroll down canal  legend

 

[Wolfo]

Miners in the 19th century made their daily 500m shaft trip on wooden ladders. Twice.
But to be mentioned, accidents were not uncommon. Specially in the evening after some 10h of hard work.

 

[mikem]

Stanton's stemples (sic ) still remain on the climb at the end of Golgotha in Reservoir Hole in fact we re cemented them recently. I guess any fixed aid could lead to legal action if it became faulty or ill maintained so maybe one puts one self in an invidious position by fixing them.

...

Although there has been a bit of topic drift. ( I never actually envisaged adding any more than the first image ) the concepts are all related. ie What is the best way to climb up and down in a cave ? What is acceptable and more importantly is a fixed aid installer liable for legal action if that aid fails and somebody gets hurt. No doubt the latter has been discussed here before but I would welcome a refresher. I suppose whatever the answer is it would also apply to a faulty set bolt on SRT.

As Reservoir is a leader only cave then you are less liable having fixed the staples, than if you led a group up there beforehand (as can prove you made it safer than it was before, if you removed them then someone could make a claim that you had made it more dangerous if they fell off). The fixed ladder into high country should probably be replaced by similar bolt set up to those below, not that I fancy taking it out!

In a more easily accessible cave, then it is generally accepted that everyone checks fixed aids, but the group leader could still be sued if a less experienced caver were to fall off.

The caving councils take responsibility for maintaining bolts as that reduces the likelihood of others adding more at popular pitch heads.

Mike

 

[paul]

Seeing Fred Dibnah again reminded me of John Noakes on Neslon's Column:

https://youtu.be/p4YFCJETmwI

 

[Vulcan]

Peak cavern has a few rigid ladders in it on the trade routes.

Personally l like them as it makes trips much quicker due to reduced faff packing ropes etc and they eliminate the need for rigging etc. It also makes trips much more beginner friendly.

A particular advantage is for trips to\from speedwell and JH it means you don't need to take a rope though colostomy crawl and Liam's way...

 

[The Old Ruminator]

The Great Pitch race !  Photos. Pete Rose.



Home made ? But where ? 60's or 70's



.

Photo by me. The Blue Pencil chain , Swildons 4 with a tatty Pete Rose. 1960's.

 

[Alex]

Second to last picture looks like GG, going up far country, 2nd one down looks like Peaks cavern