Ladders Or SRT ?
- Thread starter The Old Ruminator
- Start date
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
No real kit then Mike cus we was hard !Anyway I was caving with penniless students. :
molerat
Member
Last year I turned up at Dollytubs with a group of about five students. A similar sized group from another university club turned up at about the same time. We rigged the left hand route with ladder and lifeline, descended, admired the view, ascended and derigged in the time it took the other group to get two people down the right hand route on SRT :tease:
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
molerat said:
I think you might be right in a digging situation when ladders are left in for a short duration. Looking at our folk it takes about 15 mins to get the SRT gear sorted an on and about 20 minutes each to get up a 20m pitch. To be honest at my age I am finding the SRT quite exhausting. Perhaps ( dare I say it ) a combination of the two. Abseil down then ladder up using the sit harness to clip on for a rest.
PeteHall
Moderator
molerat said:
I am not in the least surprised. Ladders can be much less faff than SRT, in the right situation. However I suspect if you were to descend Penyghent Pot on ladders you would find it much more faff than SRT.
Horses for courses really.
Aside from faff, there is also the question of training/ practice. I have known groups use SRT for pitches they knew would be quicker on ladder as it is good practice for longer trips where SRT would be required.
On the flip side, is the question of adventure/ fun. Some years ago, a friend and I descended Rowten Pot on ladders, just because we could. We self-lined to half the rope, but it was still a lot of kit! It was an absolutely brilliant trip and one I hope to repeat one day, but definitely not as quick as SRT.
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
braveduck said:We have tended to use rigid ladders on digs where ever possible .
Saves time ,SRT and mud do not go well together .
And last but not least ,some of the diggers do not do SRT !
I suppose that then begs the question when if ever are they taken out.
Vulcan
Member
Historically cavers made there own rope ladders (long before my time) thus cost was less of an issue.
But if you where to buy them (more like in this day and age) it is much more expensive than Rope (approximately ?160 for a 10 m ladder or ?15 for rope (assuming ?1.50 per meter)).
So if you where to rig say titan (or any combination of pitches of the same length) it would cost approximately ?2250 to buy/own the required length of ladders vs ?220 for rope.
Of course clubs have tackle stores so you don't need to buy them but to own that amount of ladders is a large investment that is a arguably better spent on other kit given the cost of rope and the amount they would get used.
That said there are pitches where they are better than SRT ('give it a go' type trips where there's short pitches (eg swildens sump 1 trips) for example).
But if you where to buy them (more like in this day and age) it is much more expensive than Rope (approximately ?160 for a 10 m ladder or ?15 for rope (assuming ?1.50 per meter)).
So if you where to rig say titan (or any combination of pitches of the same length) it would cost approximately ?2250 to buy/own the required length of ladders vs ?220 for rope.
Of course clubs have tackle stores so you don't need to buy them but to own that amount of ladders is a large investment that is a arguably better spent on other kit given the cost of rope and the amount they would get used.
That said there are pitches where they are better than SRT ('give it a go' type trips where there's short pitches (eg swildens sump 1 trips) for example).
pwhole
Well-known member
We recently made the decision on one of our projects to abandon both options and just install some VF staples instead. The pitch is dogleggy and not that deep, and both SRT and electron ladders were an absolute pain to use. So we thought sod it - they can be clipped into with cowstails, and the pitch is such an easy free-climb that's all you need really. We did install fresh resin anchors at the pitch head anyway, just so folks can install a lifeline if they feel it necessary, but the time saved on entering and leaving is considerable.
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molerat:
Anyway, for what it's worth, I did a lot of caving on ladders (including many of the Yorkshire classics) before I'd even heard of SRT and have had a lot of experience with both techniques; for me SRT wins hands down in virtually every situation. The last big pitch I did was Alum Pot Main Shaft, which took me (an OAP who had open-heart surgery not so long since) 12 minutes to the rebelay (that's ~60 m). There's no way I could have done that on ladders.
Without knowing the full details, this is pure speculation ? but this scenario tends to imply to me that your (ladder) group knew exactly what they were doing, while the SRT group were relatively new to the business? I figure that 'newbie' ladderers can be organized by a competent leader, while trying to organized a group of newbie SRTists is a bit like herding cats.
Anyway, for what it's worth, I did a lot of caving on ladders (including many of the Yorkshire classics) before I'd even heard of SRT and have had a lot of experience with both techniques; for me SRT wins hands down in virtually every situation. The last big pitch I did was Alum Pot Main Shaft, which took me (an OAP who had open-heart surgery not so long since) 12 minutes to the rebelay (that's ~60 m). There's no way I could have done that on ladders.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Alex said:
Indeed, I think it's a terrible hang even for the ladder (with some people hanging the ladder on the stubby stal even further out).
However, if you look at some CSCC meeting minutes from a few years ago, you will see that someone requested that a short traverse line and free hang be put in on (I presume) the other side, which was agreed. Unfortunately anchor concerns (to do with conservation and the removability of anchors, an argument that's been done to death on here) means that the CSCC has put in barely any bolts in the last few years despite priority cases like the 35ft pitch in Eastwater (which if I remember correctly the minutes state are a pair of expansion anchors of unknown vintage, one of which is suspect! albeit with natural backup). But, being the Mendips, the plan was to put new bolts in the existing holes (on the flat top of the edge i.e. totally rubbish for SRT) for conservation reasons...
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Back on topic - ladders are quicker if they are short and you aren't lifelining... I'm unconvinced that I couldn't get up a 10m+ pitch quicker and easier than I could a 10m ladder. Having a tight fixed rope on a ladder and self-lining on a Croll does make it faster, but then I need my SRT kit anyway... Certainly quicker to abseil anything longer than about 3m.
Faff is of course the one universal and not limited to a method as ascent or descent
Faff is of course the one universal and not limited to a method as ascent or descent
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
Fulk said:
12 minutes!
I was bemused when people on this thread started saying that SRT is slower than ladder & line.
So now we know why - all the SRT routes are clogged up by sodding pensioners!
