Left Footed Pantin

[cap n chris]

Indeed! .... The pace of technological improvements is quite brisk - hybrid undergarments (tri-laminate wetsuits, neofleece etc.), the near-ubiquity of LED lighting ("programmable lights", who'd-a-thunk-it?), lithium batteries, spelenium gold rope etc.. Caving has come on leaps and bounds in a single decade and there's masses more developmental stuff going on, especially in related fields such as photography, filming, surveying etc., to such an extent that computer literacy/geekiness is fast becoming a mandatory caving technique! Who'd have thought it, even a mere twenty years ago?

The (relatively  ) recent Channel 4 programme, "Fear of Falling" (broadcast in September 1993) featured Nigel Atkins rope-walking using a Pantin to ascend Alum Pot. Hence my earlier comment regarding them being in use for (at least) seventeen years.

 

[robjones]

"The pace of technological improvements is quite brisk" - well put 

"The (relatively) well known Channel 4 programme, "Fear of Falling" (released in September 1993) featured Nigel Atkins rope-walking using a Pantin to ascend Alum Pot. Hence my earlier comment regarding them being in use for (at least) seventeen years." - but when did Pantins become commonplace / mainstream in UK caving? I ask out of genuine interest as I faded out from caving in the early 1990s (though I kept mining in the intervening period - but mine explorers tend not to be so into SRT developments as cavers hence that is probably why I did not notice Pantins in that period) and only returned a few years ago by which time Pantins were pretty commonplace.

"homemade pantins from cutdown jammers have been floating around for yonks" - but what were they called by their makers/users before the Pantin arrived on the caving scene? Presumably they weren't called Pantins!

I appreciate that dating when a piece of gear or a technique became commonplace is more difficult than dating the first introduction, but surely both dates are equally important. As an example (and 'cos its topical, Speloetechnics seemingly now closing down) a friend caved with a pre-production Fx2 in 1983/4 (he knew their inventor and had one to trial - he reported that the early cases were too soft and needed extra corner reinforcement, both of which were acted upon) but it took a few years longer for Fx2s to become mainstream. So to state that Fx2s were "in use from 1983" whilst omitting to also state the period when they became commonplace would be a tad misleading 

 

[cap n chris]

I think it'll be very hard to hit on any accuracy, Rob, since the definition of commonplace is always going to be a sticking point. e.g. it is quite commonplace for cavers of a particular era to persevere with carbide and ladders whereas you might find a bunch of young tigers all using state-of-the-art lightweight type-A ropes, skinny-as-fcuk dyneema slings and helium karabiners for rigging etc..

My recollection is that Pantins were on the shelves in caving shops certainly from the late 90s onwards but being a Mendip caver means I'm going to have a skewed view of their general common usage since SRT isn't exactly mainstream down here even now! IIRC I purchased my first one around 1999-2000. Mind you I purchased my first LED lighting around then too and I'm pretty sure Pantins have been in wider use for longer than LEDs.

Whatever.... good stuff gets utilised very quickly and word spreads fast, especially among active cavers who can see when something's offering a major advantage e.g. light weight, improved/increased efficiency, long-life, multiple applications etc..

 

[robjones]

I've an interest in the diffusion of technology. You're clearly what is termed an "early adopter"! 

 

[biff]

if I was putting money on it Id say they hit the UK caving shops mid 2001

 

[robjones]

Thanks Biff, good to narrow the date down - I first noticed them c.2006/7 but as I explained further up this thread, i'd been out of caving for a period.

 

[biff]

good job I didnt put money on it, as it was in the 1999 Petzl Catalogue. I got one at Expe September 2000 and I hadn't noticed them in UK shops at this point, but that's not to say that they weren't.

 

[mikem]

or do they mean that using a left AS WELL AS a right pantin isn't recommended for caving...

Mike

 

[potholer]

I think Brockers has something
If the Pantin is still attached when the chest jammer is transferred to the upper rope, it could make getting the rope out of the hook of the chest jammer frame more difficult, or create more frame wear.

(I wonder if having the rope pulled against the frame rather than the cam would affect cam wear, or the speed/reliability of engagement on dirty ropes or with a worn cam?)

However, looking at what Marks quoted:

"Tip: fix the footloop to the left leg with elastic loops. When walking, the top end of the footloop is simply clipped to an equipment loop (see drawing). The left-foot PANTIN is not recommended for this configuration, because of the increased complexity of passing rebelays."

put me in mind of my old frog-walking system, with the left foot in a short tape loop attached to a standard jammer floated near the left calf via shockcord from the shoulder.

I'd done it that way to keep a 'standard' left arm/right/foot combination for the hand jammer, which was what i typically used if frogging with a single-leg.
I had the handjammer footloop attached to the right foot with a chicken loop.

With the footloop attached that way, and my safety cord attached to me on the left side of my harness to keep it away from the path through the Croll, it meant that I had a loop made by my body, safety cord and footloop, and if I tried to set up that loop before getting on the rope, it would get in the way of rope leaving the bottom of the Croll getting to the left foot, which meant I had to put the footloop from the handjammer into the right ankle's chicken loop after getting on the rope, and remove it before getting off. Not a big deal if actually ropewalking anything big, but still a little faffy.
If I didn't want ropes wrapping round each other, I'd have had to move where my safety cord attached to the right side of the harness, where it could get in the way of a clean flow of rope through the Croll.

With a right-footed Pantin I can leave the hand jammer footloop chicken-looped to the left foot permanently while ropeclimbing, doing manouvres, getting on/off ropes, and walking between pitches if they're close - I only need to remove it if I want to use the hand jammer for protection or getting off an awkward pitchhead.

It's not a huge issue, but having a right-footed Pantin does fit slightly better with my habitual kit layout.

 

[biff]

because the French don't necessarily use an idiot loop. They use their long cowstail for this instead. As cowstails typically live on the left leg side of central maillon they also want the foot loop on this side in order to make manouvres simple (from a knitting standpoint), and because they like to snoopy foot loop down their left leg; and therefore the pantin on the right side.
??????

 

[seddon]

Bought a foot jammer from J Rat in early '91 (continental, but  not a Pantin). This was because the late, great Wlodeck S. was using one in the Picos in '89 - 90. It wasn't that unusual with continental cavers doing deep trips even then, I think.

Pragmatically, I've never had a problem with the left foot Pantin. I read the blurb when I bought it, and thought "eh...?". Only difference is really that the rope leaves the base of the Croll at a slightly different angle - but no more than if you trailed the rope around the outside of your left foot, for example; cannot see anything very untoward there.

Routing of footloop and safety cord (on the right side is my preference, with a left foot jammer) shouldn't effect a very radical difference in set up, especially if one is using the typical British set-up with separate safety loop (chacun a son goute...).

If in doubt, go out and try... you probably won't die - as a result of using a left foot Pantin, at least.

 

[biff]

Routing of footloop and safety cord (on the right side is my preference, with a left foot jammer) shouldn't effect a very radical difference in set up, especially if one is using the typical British set-up with separate safety loop (chacun a son goute...).

If in doubt, go out and try... you probably won't die - as a result of using a left foot Pantin, at least.

Agree, me too

The petzl take on the system involves using the long cowstail instead of an idiot / safety loop (I think this is probably how the pantin instructions illustrate it). With the cowstails on the left (where they want to be) a left footed jammer would mean that the footloop is consequently lashed to the right leg. At a rebelay (when ascending), this means that the long cowstail continually needs to be unclipped from the hand jammer to unknit it from behind the srt rope as these are on separate sides of rope.

As we tend to use a separate safety cord (which is typically on the right hand side) and not the long cowstail, then it could arguably make more sense to use a left footed pantin with the footloop down the right side.

and as Tony says, you probably won't die

 

[potholer]

As we tend to use a separate safety cord (which is typically on the right hand side)...

It is?

I'd assumed it was generally on the left.

 

[biff]

To get nicely weaved up with your cowstails, but its obviously what works for the individual. If you prefer safety cord on left then a right foot pantin would probably be the choice.

 

[khakipuce]

Like I said a while ago in this thread, I have a left foot Pantin and last time I checked I wasn't dead (at least from the neck down).

I really don't get all this debate about handedness of rebelay rigging and left/right safety cord. When you come to a rebelay you have to take each bit of kit off the rope (hopefully one at a time) and put it back on the rope. So what does it matter    The pantin tends to be the first thing to come off and last to go back on - it's only there as an aid to make prussicing more efficient, not something to rely on (which is why I went for a left foot, my left knee is more knackered than my right and I figured I'd be doing more work with the foot loop leg than the Pantin leg).

I have my croll on the right, everything else is left of this and I tend to clip my stop in between cows tails and safety cord when I'm using it and remove it when not in use. I don't have any problems with knitting - just keep all your stringy bits between you and the rope

I mainly frog with the Pantin so the the rope is pretty much vertical, just like it would be with no Pantin and even when I rope walk in the narrow bits I'm hardly doing the splits.

Surely the "handedness" of a rebelay depends where the higher anchor point is, I can't think of any where the higher belay is directly above the lower one, so whether the rope loop comes down on the left, right or front depends. I also find that typically it is necessary to frog up a metre or so from a rebelay before engaging the Pantin.

I suggest that the only people that can answer this are Petzl themselves

 

[potholer]

If you are going to use a chicken loop to attach the hand-jammer's footloop to the foot, then the 'best' foot for the foot jammer does depend where you attach a safety cord (or vice versa), which I guess could be why the Petzl suggestion that a left-foot Pantin might not be best was in the paragraph where use of a chicken loop was suggested.

You do have to take all the attachments off the rope to pass a rebelay, but its an inconvenience also having to take a foot out of a footloop if it's attached, especially if one of the nice things about a chicken loop (on the proper foot) is that it makes it possible to exit pitches and walk to and get on the next one without bothering to get the foot out of the footloop.

 

[biff]

I really don't get all this debate about handedness of rebelay rigging and left/right safety cord. When you come to a rebelay you have to take each bit of kit off the rope (hopefully one at a time) and put it back on the rope. So what does it matter    The pantin tends to be the first thing to come off and last to go back on - it's only there as an aid to make prussicing more efficient, not something to rely on (which is why I went for a left foot, my left knee is more knackered than my right and I figured I'd be doing more work with the foot loop leg than the Pantin leg).

It?s really not complicated.

The original question was trying to determine why Petzl do not recommend a left foot pantin.

The setup laid out by Petzl involves using the long cowstail as a safety cord, cowstails on the left, and the footloop lashed to the left leg.

If you use a left foot pantin with this setup, then the footloop would be lashed to the right leg. Assuming the cowstails remain on the left, then everytime you get up to a rebelay then you would have to unclip long cowstail from hand jammer  to then move stuff across (because cowstail is one side and footloop is lashed to your leg on the other). With the Petzl specified layout then you don?t need to unclip the cowstail from jammer, because theyre on the same flippin side.

 

[khakipuce]

Assuming the cowstails remain on the left, then everytime you get up to a rebelay then you would have to unclip long cowstail from hand jammer  to then move stuff across (because cowstail is one side and footloop is lashed to your leg on the other). With the Petzl specified layout then you don?t need to unclip the cowstail from jammer, because theyre on the same flippin side.

But if, as I said,  you keep all the bits of string attached to you between you and the rope - so your foot loop, long cowstail etc. are between you and the rope you don't need to do this.

I was going to say "Admittedly - and I guess this really does answer the question - you would have to concentrate at a rebelay to make sure that the rope as it comes out of the croll goes on the far side of your foot loop"

but then I thought about it and thought, actually if your foot loop is lashed to you leg you cannot get it wrong. Think about yourself stood there before you get on the rope - in fact try it - handjammer on long cowstail, footloop lashed to right leg, chest jammer ready to go. Now, approach the rope, you can put your hand jammer and croll on the rope without unclipping anything - yes there is a crossover as the footloop cord passes between your body and the rope, but not an issue (may be the feed path for the rope is a little less smotth).

And it must be the same at a rebelay...

 

[potholer]

If you have the safety attachment cord (cowstail or dedicated cord) running between you and the rope, it's not just going to be rubbing up and down, but when you're fully standing up and the hand jammer is close to touching the chest jammer (or possibly well before then), surely there'll be a knot +/or crab jamming into the front of the chest jammer and all around the top/back?

That seems likely to be a combination of a general pain and a significant detachment hazard, and could be entirely avoided by getting the appropriate Pantin to match the layout of the rest of an SRT rig.

 

[biff]

Think about yourself stood there before you get on the rope

Ok, lets do that

Attach croll. Attach hand jammer, that is lashed to right leg (because were talking about a left foot pantin) and has no safety loop (because were talking about Petzl setup). Then attach long cowstail to hand jammer (to act as safety loop) from the left side (where Petzl show that it lives). You have now effectively bear hugged youself around the back of the rope, and we know what this means when you get up to rebelay. Alternatively you have taken the care to lay the long cowstail across the front of the rope (so as not to bear hug yourself around rope). The net result of this will be that long cowstail from the left is twisted over the front of the rope and stuck between croll and hand jammer all the way up the rope. This is never going to be good IMO.