Letter by Malc Foyle to the Wessex Journal- posted here with permission
- Thread starter Pegasus
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Russell Myers
Member
PeteHall said:
Pete, I keep thinking I've just turned 25 but somehow my body doesn't quite work like it should at 25 especially stooped over trying to lift a foot over a rock on the floor, it's weird, I keep stubbing my toe!
In historic terms, I've traced this issue back to Eli Simpson and the attitudes that developed from his view of a British Speleological governing body! Maybe something for another post elsewhere on the forum.
Regarding change, I refer you to the quote on the footer of my posts.
I think the difference in attitude mainly stems from Yorkshire already having lots of open potholes on the fells, whilst the majority of Mendip (& Welsh) caves were dug open. Derbyshire is slightly different, in that miners / quarrymen opened up most of the systems (even if many of those entrances were subsequently lost).
John Gresty
New member
Russel, long time, no see. Your comments re history are important. I quite recently questioned a high-up in the Peak district national park authority who was speaking about 'restoring the peak district moors' , I asked whether they were planning to replant with trees as that was the original flora, my final riposte was 'When does history start'.
Another occasion I heard someone make a very definite statement, that was correct within their knowledge timespan, but within mine it was total rubbish.
It is always useful to have the full story, but the difficulty is to know how to use that knowledge. Added to which I also believe that the more one knows about a subject, the more you realise how little you actually know.
Good luck with the 'job'.
John
Another occasion I heard someone make a very definite statement, that was correct within their knowledge timespan, but within mine it was total rubbish.
It is always useful to have the full story, but the difficulty is to know how to use that knowledge. Added to which I also believe that the more one knows about a subject, the more you realise how little you actually know.
Good luck with the 'job'.
John
Badlad said:
I wanted to make another point when I wrote this yesterday but had to leave the house for some rather damp potholing.
"Why would they [landowners] allow new caves to be found that will result in more people coming on to their land?" ELMS perhaps?
Environmental Land Management scheme will take over farm payment schemes post brexit. All farmers/landowners get large subsidy payments for a variety of reasons. These are changing in the post brexit world as they can no longer be delivered through the EU Common Agricultural Policy. Government Ministers have stated that the new scheme will deliver "public money for public good" and that "public access is a public good". Most outdoor organisations are working hard to ensure this happens for their own sectors. The most difficult part seems to be placing a value on access. Never the less it is likely that schemes will pay farmers for access on PROW, horse riding, climbing etc and it is perfectly possible to include caving amongst that mix. So find a new cave and the farmer/landowner gets paid for it.
The problem lies that you need to impress on government/Defra/NE that caving has a value. That's the job for a national organisation. Unfortunately since I reported on a meeting with other outdoor organisations two years ago (as a stand in for the BCA C&A officer) nothing has been done. The BCA volunteer effort and good will is minimised by the infighting and disruptive politics as outlined in the subject of this thread. It is likely that caving will be forgotten again because we haven't engaged with the outside world only looked inwards to our own petty battles. We missed the boat with CRoW for the same reason and now we are playing catch up at great expense, I expect we'll be playing the same game with ELMS.
"Why would they [landowners] allow new caves to be found that will result in more people coming on to their land?"
One thing many fail to bear in mind is that farm land is private land (and as important to the owner as your garden is to you). Having seen the mess left at some French sites (especially those in private gardens) we all need to bear in mind that one caver dropping a mars bar wrapper or being seen taking a piss gives all cavers a bad name and farmers speak to other farmers... If we want continued (and improved) access then we need to look at what we can do for the farmer (cash for access isn't everything). Remember, the easy option for a farmer is to say "No Access", access is a privilege and not a right.
One thing many fail to bear in mind is that farm land is private land (and as important to the owner as your garden is to you). Having seen the mess left at some French sites (especially those in private gardens) we all need to bear in mind that one caver dropping a mars bar wrapper or being seen taking a piss gives all cavers a bad name and farmers speak to other farmers... If we want continued (and improved) access then we need to look at what we can do for the farmer (cash for access isn't everything). Remember, the easy option for a farmer is to say "No Access", access is a privilege and not a right.
mrodoc
Well-known member
Somebody a while back asked why caves were closed on Mendip. As Mikem has pointed out both Devon and Mendip are limestone areas primarily in relatively well populated areas where individual farms are not that big. Access to caves is very much at the whim of the farmer. Some feel caving is part of the appeal of the Mendips and are pro caver but others are sensitive about strangers on their land particularly with the high level of agricultural thefts we get in this part of the world. One or two have made demands for access fees that are quite frankly exorbitant so the cave is effectively closed. We rely on the goodwill of Cheddar Caves for all the caves on one side of the Gorge and that could change at any time. Some of the major caves are in a wildlife reserve where delicate negotiation was required to gain caver access (the bat lobby can be quite vociferous). In Devon the same applies and here landowners are even more unfamiliar with cavers and often have an outdated image of it being a very dangerous activity and then worry about their liability in case of accidents. One promising dig was shut down, apparently because the landowner's solicitor didn't trust the BCA insurance! Pridhamsleigh Cavern is the one open site. Here the farmer controls access to the cave but not the cave and makes many thousands a year by charging ?1 or so per person to cross his land. You might find this hard to believe but if I tell you that in the summer probably 20-30 children a day on outdoor activities trips get taken in there you can see how it mounts up. So if you want to go caving come to Prid (and risk the wrath of the residents of this tiny place). I am sure there are other Mendip cavers who can expand on what I saying.
One (tongue in cheek suggestion) is the BCA continues with the CROW case but sets up a fighting fund to buy the land over all the caves we might risk losing access to down south. Seems only fair!
One (tongue in cheek suggestion) is the BCA continues with the CROW case but sets up a fighting fund to buy the land over all the caves we might risk losing access to down south. Seems only fair!
Sounds like a really good reason to have a legal right of access to at least some caves. In any case the whole CRoW issue might well come to a head soon and finally be decided in court. It should be good for everyone, one way or another, to know where their legal rights stand.
PeteHall
Moderator
TO be honest mrodoc, I was really interested in the specifics for each closed site. There are often general comments thrown around about landowners being wary of people on their land etc. but very few (if any) specific examples that I have heard.mrodoc said:
Appreciate that this isn't a serious suggestion, but the issue here, much like the issue of exorbitant access fees is that it sets a very dangerous precedent. If BCA (or any caving body) were to buy a site to secure an access that had been denied, other landowners may see an opportunity to demand a huge sum of money or the will close their site too. Currently, there is more financial incentive for landowners to allow access (Prid is a good example, but many other landowners charge a trespass or parking fee), than there is to deny access. If BCA had a dedicated fund for buying closed caves, there would be a strong incentive for landowners to effectively ransom their caves.
It never ceases to amaze me that in a tiny, overpopulated country like ours that we, as a society, allow individuals to own large tracts of land for their sole, personal benefit and gain with little if any societal benefit. In the words of Gerrard Winstanley (17th century digger) "The earth is a common treasury for all".
cap n chris
Well-known member
It's known as owning stuff. Quite common in a capitalist economy. Thank goodness we don't live in a socialist hell.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
There are plenty of people willing to moan about the CSCC.
But unlike many of the ACBs etc., they are at least maintaining the pretence of democracy. I say 'pretence' only because it isn't really democracy if only one set of people volunteer (and that's not the volunteers' fault!).
If you don't like it, convince a few clubs and stand for a position! You could even (if you wanted) try and change the CSCC constitution.
Or you could even just turn up and cause trouble by vetoing everything, if you can convince a club to let you. There are something like 40 CSCC clubs, but the vast majority never turn up. It wouldn't be too hard, if you had the numbers, to institute electronic voting or even individual membership (I would suggest that you agreed with the BCA that every BCA individual member has the option to join the CSCC but membership would automatically be revoked if they became an individual member of another regional council; the other regional councils could then, in the fullness of time, follow suit). Apart from the veto of course, which you'd have to get rid of first (but you could probably just dissolve and reform the CSCC with a new constitution).
You could do anything - IF you are willing to stand behind what you believe and put the work in (and can convince others of this). I am reticent to criticise volunteers, even if I don't agree with them, who have stood up and done jobs that no-one else has volunteered to do.
But unlike many of the ACBs etc., they are at least maintaining the pretence of democracy. I say 'pretence' only because it isn't really democracy if only one set of people volunteer (and that's not the volunteers' fault!).
If you don't like it, convince a few clubs and stand for a position! You could even (if you wanted) try and change the CSCC constitution.
Or you could even just turn up and cause trouble by vetoing everything, if you can convince a club to let you. There are something like 40 CSCC clubs, but the vast majority never turn up. It wouldn't be too hard, if you had the numbers, to institute electronic voting or even individual membership (I would suggest that you agreed with the BCA that every BCA individual member has the option to join the CSCC but membership would automatically be revoked if they became an individual member of another regional council; the other regional councils could then, in the fullness of time, follow suit). Apart from the veto of course, which you'd have to get rid of first (but you could probably just dissolve and reform the CSCC with a new constitution).
You could do anything - IF you are willing to stand behind what you believe and put the work in (and can convince others of this). I am reticent to criticise volunteers, even if I don't agree with them, who have stood up and done jobs that no-one else has volunteered to do.
Pete K
Well-known member
PeteHall said:
Just to come back on this point quickly. The BMC have purchased land for climbing for a number of years and as far as I am aware, what you suggest has not come to pass for them. They do have a significantly higher membership and budget, so buying caves may not be possible for other reasons anyway.
mrodoc
Well-known member
What it would be good is to have specific support from BCA (rather than a regional body) when dealing with organizations such as councils or governing bodies. We have a very promising dig site in Devon on Highways land but local cavers are scared of asking permission to dig there despite my suggesting that a proposal with a risk assessment might do the job. There are sites we know of (OR knows one) where our regional representatives appear unable or unwilling to assist with such issues. I know this is just a forum but perhaps somebody knows BCA's position with this.
The BCA probably has enough cash in the bank to buy 20 acres of good farmland, or half the Pennines. You can then lease it back to a farmer. This sort of thing goes on all the time in farming. You should see what a hodgepotch of fields some farmers operate. Some are miles apart.
The BMC has bought several crags.
The BMC has bought several crags.
PeteHall
Moderator
Can we please leave out the comparisons of farm land to a private garden 
Yes, as far as ownership goes, the two are alike (except that one is typically owned by a (family?) business, the other by an individual), but the comparison ends there.
A private garden is a tiny piece of land immediately adjacent to your home, it is part of your home, no different to your front room, but without a roof.
Agricultural land by its very nature occupies huge areas of open countryside, it is not used to dry the laundry, store your bike, let the kids play unsupervised, leave the family dog/ cat/ rabbit/ guinea pig, relax in a hot tub, have a BBQ, wash your caving kit, sun bathe etc.
Agricultural land is a source of income for a farmer, they have a private garden too just like the rest of us (only probably a lot bigger than most as space is less of a premium), the two are separate and very different.
I'm not suggesting that this in any way devalues the ownership, or rights of the owner, however the implications of access are very different.
And let's be clear, nobody is trying to force them to allow access anyway. On CRoW land, there is an established right of access already, where public footpaths exist, there is an established right of access already. Where neither of these apply, access arrangements are negotiated in such a way as is acceptable to both sides.
If a land owner really didn't want cavers on their land, they would be very unlikely to sell it regardless.
Yes, as far as ownership goes, the two are alike (except that one is typically owned by a (family?) business, the other by an individual), but the comparison ends there.
A private garden is a tiny piece of land immediately adjacent to your home, it is part of your home, no different to your front room, but without a roof.
Agricultural land by its very nature occupies huge areas of open countryside, it is not used to dry the laundry, store your bike, let the kids play unsupervised, leave the family dog/ cat/ rabbit/ guinea pig, relax in a hot tub, have a BBQ, wash your caving kit, sun bathe etc.
Agricultural land is a source of income for a farmer, they have a private garden too just like the rest of us (only probably a lot bigger than most as space is less of a premium), the two are separate and very different.
I'm not suggesting that this in any way devalues the ownership, or rights of the owner, however the implications of access are very different.
And let's be clear, nobody is trying to force them to allow access anyway. On CRoW land, there is an established right of access already, where public footpaths exist, there is an established right of access already. Where neither of these apply, access arrangements are negotiated in such a way as is acceptable to both sides.
If a land owner really didn't want cavers on their land, they would be very unlikely to sell it regardless.
PeteHall
Moderator
mrodoc said:
Off topic, but drop me a PM with the details if you like. We have plenty of contacts at Devon Highways and may be able to get something in front of a sympathetic pair of eyes...
You may need to design the entrance as an access manhole, and go through a formal adoption process, but that shouldn't be too challenging. I have caving colleagues who could probably assist with this process.
