PeteHall said:Thank you Russell for that insight. I have to admit that I am much too young to remember this era, not being born until the latter half of the 80's...
This does go some way to explaining historic attitudes, but times do change and we do need to move with them, or risk becoming irrelevant.
Malc's letter raises the prospect of the biggest(?) club in Mendip disassociating itself from the regional body. This surely signals that the time is ripe to change.
Badlad said:mikem said:Whilst the current situation is not directly related to access, it does stem from the view that taking control away from the landowners will adversely affect digging - why would they allow new caves to be found that will result in more people coming on to their land?
Or, to put it another way, why wouldn't they. Lots of landowners are fascinated by what might lie beneath their land and of course you generate good relationships to enable that.
In my experience of the Dales, landowners expect us to be representing cavers including campaigning for better, improved and legal rights of access. Building relationships on this basis has improved access and those relationships all round and sometimes you have to be challenging in order to achieve that. We are often seen as the solution to access issues rather than the problem. If anything it has improved opportunities for digging not diminished them.
Landowners have to comply with many laws and regulations every single day of their lives. It is not something they aren't used to but as you say this has nothing to do with current CSCC and BCA problems as outlined in Malc Foyles letter.
TO be honest mrodoc, I was really interested in the specifics for each closed site. There are often general comments thrown around about landowners being wary of people on their land etc. but very few (if any) specific examples that I have heard.mrodoc said:Somebody a while back asked why caves were closed on Mendip.
Appreciate that this isn't a serious suggestion, but the issue here, much like the issue of exorbitant access fees is that it sets a very dangerous precedent. If BCA (or any caving body) were to buy a site to secure an access that had been denied, other landowners may see an opportunity to demand a huge sum of money or the will close their site too. Currently, there is more financial incentive for landowners to allow access (Prid is a good example, but many other landowners charge a trespass or parking fee), than there is to deny access. If BCA had a dedicated fund for buying closed caves, there would be a strong incentive for landowners to effectively ransom their caves.One (tongue in cheek suggestion) is the BCA continues with the CROW case but sets up a fighting fund to buy the land over all the caves we might risk losing access to down south. Seems only fair!
PeteHall said:TO be honest mrodoc, I was really interested in the specifics for each closed site. There are often general comments thrown around about landowners being wary of people on their land etc. but very few (if any) specific examples that I have heard.mrodoc said:Somebody a while back asked why caves were closed on Mendip.
Appreciate that this isn't a serious suggestion, but the issue here, much like the issue of exorbitant access fees is that it sets a very dangerous precedent. If BCA (or any caving body) were to buy a site to secure an access that had been denied, other landowners may see an opportunity to demand a huge sum of money or the will close their site too. Currently, there is more financial incentive for landowners to allow access (Prid is a good example, but many other landowners charge a trespass or parking fee), than there is to deny access. If BCA had a dedicated fund for buying closed caves, there would be a strong incentive for landowners to effectively ransom their caves.One (tongue in cheek suggestion) is the BCA continues with the CROW case but sets up a fighting fund to buy the land over all the caves we might risk losing access to down south. Seems only fair!
mrodoc said:We have a very promising dig site in Devon on Highways land but local cavers are scared of asking permission to dig there d
You could do anything - IF you are willing to stand behind what you believe and put the work in (and can convince others of this). I am reticent to criticise volunteers, even if I don't agree with them, who have stood up and done jobs that no-one else has volunteered to do.