Loose resin anchors

[Simon Wilson]

Out of interest, do you have any feel for the strength of these loose anchors or is it too early to say?

A few people have pointed out they they have removed some loose anchors and found that it took a lot of effort. Quite a number of loose anchors have been tested with a Hydrajaws and found to withstand a 10kN force. I don't know if any have failed when being tested with a Hydrajaws tester. Of the ones I have pulled out, some of them have taken some effort to pull out and so appear to be quite strong but they have varied greatly.

I can say with certainty that anchors are continuing to become loose and I think that if nothing is done, eventually they will start falling out. The whole point of what I am doing is to be able to work out a strategy for dealing with the problem before they start falling out.

 

[Bob Mehew]

I don't know if any have failed when being tested with a Hydrajaws tester.

I was Treasurer of NCA when the testers were bought and have been involved with BCA's Equipment & Techniques Committee from before that date.  I do not recall any report of failures (i.e. the anchor came out) in using these testers. 

 

[Alex]

Now I have started actively checking them (I know you are suppose to anyway, but people never do do they?) It is indeed quite scary the amount of movement you get in some P-bolts. I have two I found (on the same pitch) I need to report in Tatham wife. I will fill the form in this lunchtime.

 

[Cavematt]

Thank you Alex.

The CNCC will be making a more proactive effort over the coming months to help gather more data (or more specifically, to encourage others to help us gather more data) about the state of all anchors across the Dales. This data is critical to helping us to plan future replacement schedules and for monitoring of anchor state. This will likely go beyond just reporting on specific defective anchors, and will be a more systematic survey of all anchors in caves. We are working at the moment on a means to best achieve this in a way that captures all necessary data but which is easily do-able by volunteer cavers on a sporting trip without too much inconvenience. Please watch this space (and the CNCC website and social media pages) for more information.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Alex,
I think you're correct in thinking that some people don't check resin anchors before using them and the same can be said about UKCaving.

 

[Wayland Smith]

I wonder if some people have a mentality of
"It's a resin anchor installed by experts they are bombproof."

 

[Badlad]

I wonder if some people have a mentality of
"It's a resin anchor installed by experts they are bombproof."

That is a very good point.  When the whole resin anchor programme was first spoken about it was sold on being bomb proof and long lasting.  Since then very little has questioned that integrity and I suspect few riggers look closely at the 'bolts' they attach their ropes to.

In rope access we recently had a discussion about the integrity of the dual system following a number of fatalities.  We have always spoke about the 100% safety redundancy of such systems but on occasion both ropes have failed.  The discussion questioned whether there was a complacency in rigging if you believed the system was boom-proof.

Perhaps a reminder of some basic principals such as 'check your anchors, they may fail' needs better publicity.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I wonder if some people have a mentality of
"It's a resin anchor installed by experts they are bombproof."

I think that is part of the way people approach resin anchors and that is a big part of the problem but there is a more serious aspect. There is a generation of cavers who weren't caving before resin anchors and who take them for granted. They enter a cave and they find that parts of the cave wall are made of metal which appear to have been there since the cave was formed like fossils.

I want to see a change of mindset in which cavers start to see anchors as part of their caving gear. Cavers need to start honouring their obligation to their fellow cavers. If you borrowed a set of club SRT gear and found something wrong with it would you just toss it back in the tackle store and forget about it?

 

[droid]

There is a generation of cavers who weren't caving before resin anchors and who take them for granted. They enter a cave and they find that parts of the cave wall are made of metal which appear to have been there since the cave was formed like fossils.

Good point.
I seem to recall a similar attitude when spits became much more prolific in the early 80's....

 

[Simon Wilson]

There is a generation of cavers who weren't caving before resin anchors and who take them for granted. They enter a cave and they find that parts of the cave wall are made of metal which appear to have been there since the cave was formed like fossils.

Good point.
I seem to recall a similar attitude when spits became much more prolific in the early 80's....

I can't see quite what you mean. In the early 80s cavers were splattering the caves with Spits with gay abandon. Those who weren't doing the splattering could watch it happening; some with delight and most with horror. It was the rock that was being taken for granted.

 

[droid]

The spits were too. They were considered 'better' than the previous random collection of lumps of wood and scrap iron.

Until they started failing/needed replacing (corroded threads).

History is merely repeating itself.

 

[Simon Wilson]

The spits were too. They were considered 'better' than the previous random collection of lumps of wood and scrap iron.

Until they started failing/needed replacing (corroded threads).

History is merely repeating itself.

I suppose an advocate of ladder caving might see it that way but that isn't the way I see it. Spits were perceived as being an essential part of SRT and it was SRT that was considered better. We could get down caves in a way that was more interesting, more comfortable and safer then previously.

Some of us were not at all surprised when Spits started failing. In fact we said, "We told you so." It took a very serious accident before they listened to us and stopped using Spits.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Have you (or anyone else) pulled out resins that passed such an inspection? If so, how much force did it take

Yes.  Shed loads.
Even with ones that were supposedly wobbly. So many shed loads, indeed, that I'm amazingly reassured by how bomber a pair, or sequence, of resin anchors might be.
NB Purposive vagueness in order to fog up any subsequent attempts at scientific analysis of what is essentially a personal opinion rather than a statement of legal veracity. But put another way, if you've got to chain drill out resin and then use your entire body weight and a long crowbar to flex an anchor that still won't budge and end up pulling it out using a hydraulic ram after yet more resin drilling, and it's supposedly "loose as fcuk", then I'm quite impressed by them, frankly.

The problem is that if you drill round an anchor to remove it then you don?t find out how much force it would take to pull it out.

How much force does it take to lift a human body?        Oh let me see ... erm ..... shed loads.

If you pull an anchor out without any drilling then you get a much better indication of how much force it takes. If you pull enough out you start to see a great variation in the force required.

There?s much more to this problem than how much weakened a loose anchor is. Another question is: to what extent are anchors continuing to become loose, and if not all anchors, which anchors are coming loose?

Chain drilling round an anchor will also further damage the location and then you might not be able to install an anchor in the same place so not a good idea on both counts.

 

[NewStuff]

There is a generation of cavers who weren't caving before resin anchors and who take them for granted. They enter a cave and they find that parts of the cave wall are made of metal which appear to have been there since the cave was formed like fossils.

A little unfair, I suspect most people that have more than a passing interest in caving/exploration know the history and progression of kit, ladders, SRT, anchors etc.

 

[droid]

I suppose an advocate of ladder caving might see it that way but that isn't the way I see it. Spits were perceived as being an essential part of SRT and it was SRT that was considered better. We could get down caves in a way that was more interesting, more comfortable and safer then previously.

Some of us were not at all surprised when Spits started failing. In fact we said, "We told you so." It took a very serious accident before they listened to us and stopped using Spits.

I was caving when the transition between ladders and SRT was taking place, and I can assure you it wasn't the seamless switch-over you imply above.

Spits were used for ladders/belays too. Hence my comments.

They weren't considered 'essential' for SRT (or it's immediate predecessor SRD*): pitons, industrial fixings and coach bolts were all used too. Spits, however, were cheap, easy to place and readily available.

I remember many of the arguments both for and against spits 35 years ago. Sadly I don't remember much from Simon Wilson....

But despite your assumptions about my comments (and I recommend you read them more carefully) I still agree that fixings of any sort, even the IC ones, shouldn't be taken for granted.


*SRD: Sling a Rope Down

 

[alastairgott]

There is a generation of cavers who weren't caving before resin anchors and who take them for granted. They enter a cave and they find that parts of the cave wall are made of metal which appear to have been there since the cave was formed like fossils.

Ah, those hollowed out brown swirly fossils that you only tend to find at pitch-heads. They're always strangely at 90degrees as though they're meant for something.  :