Mam Tor Engine shaft
- Thread starter Goydenman
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Goydenman
Well-known member
Quotes from Jo Rieuwerts Odin mine book:
'Engine Sough - mentioned only briefly on a mine plan drawn in 1757, it was almost certainly a shale gate level from the din gulley driven to the Mam Engine workings. No dates are known, but it perhaps dates from the early years of the eighteenth century. A SHAL DRIFT or LEVEL mentioned in connection with the Founder Meers and Lords meer in Peak Forest Liberty could be an extension of this sough along the vein. It is possible the so called Engine Sough was originally driven as an exploratory gate seeking signs of mineral in the shale along the range of the vein. This would be west of the Forefield of the Levy in 1706 and prior to the Mam Tor Engine shaft being sunk, indeed it may have been sunk on such a mineral showing.'
' Engine Cart Drift - Shown on Robert Ho's plan of 1757, it was a short haulage way only a little over 200 yards long at that time. It was driven from Mam Tor Engine Shaft westwards along the vein prior to the driving of the main Cartgate, though its depth beneath the surface is not known.'
'Engine Sough - mentioned only briefly on a mine plan drawn in 1757, it was almost certainly a shale gate level from the din gulley driven to the Mam Engine workings. No dates are known, but it perhaps dates from the early years of the eighteenth century. A SHAL DRIFT or LEVEL mentioned in connection with the Founder Meers and Lords meer in Peak Forest Liberty could be an extension of this sough along the vein. It is possible the so called Engine Sough was originally driven as an exploratory gate seeking signs of mineral in the shale along the range of the vein. This would be west of the Forefield of the Levy in 1706 and prior to the Mam Tor Engine shaft being sunk, indeed it may have been sunk on such a mineral showing.'
' Engine Cart Drift - Shown on Robert Ho's plan of 1757, it was a short haulage way only a little over 200 yards long at that time. It was driven from Mam Tor Engine Shaft westwards along the vein prior to the driving of the main Cartgate, though its depth beneath the surface is not known.'
Brains
Well-known member
So all the currently known workings are in the first few mears in and above the cartgate... Seems so much more in there that hasnt been seen. The suggested route in the CCPC guide is abolutely tiny!
Anybody very curious with out much imagination for hanging shale? Could be some awesome trips to be had
Anybody very curious with out much imagination for hanging shale? Could be some awesome trips to be had
danthecavingman
Member
Has Mam Tor Swallet tested to Trickett Bridge Sough?
Rather than it going to Blue John Cavern I always suspected that the Mam Tor Swallet water re-appeared in Odin Mine at a place on an old survey named Brass Castles? Just thinking that Mam Tor Swallet might be a back door into Odin beyond the collapses.
Dan.
Rather than it going to Blue John Cavern I always suspected that the Mam Tor Swallet water re-appeared in Odin Mine at a place on an old survey named Brass Castles? Just thinking that Mam Tor Swallet might be a back door into Odin beyond the collapses.
Dan.
pwhole
Well-known member
I was hoping you'd drop in Dan.
John Gunn told me that it was the only positive result from Mam Tor Swallet - I guess that doesn't mean it only drains to Odin, just that he never got a positive anywhere else, though I have no idea where the other detectors were. I would imagine, though pure conjecture, that the main inlet flows would already be at sough level well before the west end of the accessible workings - just because it was mined so thoroughly, and water always an issue. They did hit a huge spring somewhere around Brass Castle, certainly, which caused them massive problems.
The step up in the cartgate around this area was also down to problems with very hard rock - possibly the name Brass Castles derives from that, but I suspect it was more likely that they found a large pyrite deposit - or sphalerite, as that would be very useful for brass-making. They certainly were trying to flog the stuff at one point.
I think the furthest point west reached by Peter Lord and co would probably be the most likely point to look at, although the western cartgate around the Knowlegates level above that was 'going' when the floor disappeared from them and they scarpered. We have discussed all this before on here though. I'm sure some of our older contributors must have pushed some of this though - Bograt?
John Gunn told me that it was the only positive result from Mam Tor Swallet - I guess that doesn't mean it only drains to Odin, just that he never got a positive anywhere else, though I have no idea where the other detectors were. I would imagine, though pure conjecture, that the main inlet flows would already be at sough level well before the west end of the accessible workings - just because it was mined so thoroughly, and water always an issue. They did hit a huge spring somewhere around Brass Castle, certainly, which caused them massive problems.
The step up in the cartgate around this area was also down to problems with very hard rock - possibly the name Brass Castles derives from that, but I suspect it was more likely that they found a large pyrite deposit - or sphalerite, as that would be very useful for brass-making. They certainly were trying to flog the stuff at one point.
I think the furthest point west reached by Peter Lord and co would probably be the most likely point to look at, although the western cartgate around the Knowlegates level above that was 'going' when the floor disappeared from them and they scarpered. We have discussed all this before on here though. I'm sure some of our older contributors must have pushed some of this though - Bograt?
Brains
Well-known member
Sounds interesting - has any digging happend at the swallet in recent times? Wonder where on the section Phil posted the Brass Castle(s) is/are. In the new book it describes an otherwise barren / pyrite rich horse in the vein the old man worked around. The book describes a raise at the end of the 26th meer, 40 yards short of the brass castle, on the sough level. This would appear to be above the bottom level shown in the section.
I'm guessing the current known mine doesnt go beyond the 10th meer?
(How long before we get another split off topic?
)
I'm guessing the current known mine doesnt go beyond the 10th meer?
(How long before we get another split off topic?
)
pwhole
Well-known member
We're doing well for splits! And yes, I meant a step up in Knowlegates Sough, not the cartgate earlier - I think this may have been the area where the Brass Castle was. I'm sure it's marked on Robert How's plan from 1757. Silliman's account also mentions getting into a large natural cavern (pipe?) some way in where the miners showed them how to work out some ore.
The western workings on Amy Gutter vein (which rejoins the main vein some distance after the entrance crosscut) extend to about the 10th meer at the highest level before collapses block the way on, and I think the lower level workings on Slicken Drift/Gin Swafe Vein pretty much match those (allowing for hade). But all of this is only really in the first quarter of what was (is) actually there. Ironically, the collapsing floors and whatnot that the 70s surveyors encountered would be easily overcome now with cordless drills. Mark Noble told me ages ago (probably on here), that the cartgate (or a different one as I think it might have been lower) was still going, but they couldn't reach it any longer. I'm sure he can clarify.
Below is a comparison of the old miner's plan with Peter Lord's survey plan, with what I think are the correct proportions. The rither point seen on the top plan at point 'F' is certainly accessible, and there is another cartgate with sleepers in the floor along what is shown as ''Strong Cross Vein' - probably Slicken Drift Vein. I think there were several cartgates in reality.
Also the Peter Lord elevation overlaid on the main elevation shown earlier, again with what I believe to be the correct positioning. It's also my contention that the 'Deepe Shafte', mentioned in 1638 as owned by Robert Hallom is none other than the Bell Chamber. I wish I'd been there more than once, but I think it's one of many pipe caverns hanging off the vein at intervals.
You see what you've started now...?
The western workings on Amy Gutter vein (which rejoins the main vein some distance after the entrance crosscut) extend to about the 10th meer at the highest level before collapses block the way on, and I think the lower level workings on Slicken Drift/Gin Swafe Vein pretty much match those (allowing for hade). But all of this is only really in the first quarter of what was (is) actually there. Ironically, the collapsing floors and whatnot that the 70s surveyors encountered would be easily overcome now with cordless drills. Mark Noble told me ages ago (probably on here), that the cartgate (or a different one as I think it might have been lower) was still going, but they couldn't reach it any longer. I'm sure he can clarify.
Below is a comparison of the old miner's plan with Peter Lord's survey plan, with what I think are the correct proportions. The rither point seen on the top plan at point 'F' is certainly accessible, and there is another cartgate with sleepers in the floor along what is shown as ''Strong Cross Vein' - probably Slicken Drift Vein. I think there were several cartgates in reality.
Also the Peter Lord elevation overlaid on the main elevation shown earlier, again with what I believe to be the correct positioning. It's also my contention that the 'Deepe Shafte', mentioned in 1638 as owned by Robert Hallom is none other than the Bell Chamber. I wish I'd been there more than once, but I think it's one of many pipe caverns hanging off the vein at intervals.
You see what you've started now...?
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Brains
Well-known member
Oh my eyes! So much detail to try and absorb, and so teeny weeny - even downloading and zooming in leaves things blurred, but it DOES give a good impression of how much more there is to look for... Now we just need to get in there with a good drill and better batteries. As and when we can get back in I am willing to lend a hand with heading to the wild west, but I have no drill Perhaps Peagasus will lend us her new one - just to check it works of course! Got some rope that could go the cause. Perhaps these could all be reunited as a greater odin discussion thread!?
Dont suppose you could host them on your site and provide a link?
Perhaps Peagasus will lend us her new one - just to check it works of course! Got some rope that could go the cause. Perhaps these could all be reunited as a greater odin discussion thread!?Dont suppose you could host them on your site and provide a link?
Mark
Well-known member
pwhole said:
I was on some of those trips, I remember my first trip in there, with Pete Lord< Tony Buckley and Co, we got to a definite cartgate and the floor was collapsing as we went
Also remember flowing water in the very bottom of the mine with some natural
I don't think anyone has been back. I have thought for a long time battery drills and traverse lines would be the way forward.
pwhole
Well-known member
Brains - I'll email you higher-res, but I'm not hosting them for all to see too - I've got enough of my site up here as it is! All these surveys are available in the 76 special bulletin - Vol 6, no. 4:
http://www.pdmhs.com/publications/index---mining-history-volume-6
I've got a drill, but I can't use it in Odin till they says-so, unfortunately.
http://www.pdmhs.com/publications/index---mining-history-volume-6
I've got a drill, but I can't use it in Odin till they says-so, unfortunately.
Madness
New member
I'm sure the DCA Access Officer has the most up to date info on the access situation.
Much as I'm against controlled access, I'm aware that it's necessary in certain cases. Perhaps if an organisation offered to create and gate a safe entrance to Odin, carry out stabilisation work and manage access then perhaps the NT would be co-operative.
Perhaps a formal proposal from the DCA or PDMHS should be put to the NT?
It certainly sounds like there's plenty on interest in Odin, so I sure volunteers would be forthcoming to offer help.
Much as I'm against controlled access, I'm aware that it's necessary in certain cases. Perhaps if an organisation offered to create and gate a safe entrance to Odin, carry out stabilisation work and manage access then perhaps the NT would be co-operative.
Perhaps a formal proposal from the DCA or PDMHS should be put to the NT?
It certainly sounds like there's plenty on interest in Odin, so I sure volunteers would be forthcoming to offer help.
SamT
Moderator
I dont think access in terms of gates is an issue, its naturally gated by way of needing to ab into the entrance gorge.
Its more the potential for a collapse of the in area by the bus turnaround (i.e. the cartgate roof) which is a popular tourist picnic type area now that concerns NT and NE etc.
Its more the potential for a collapse of the in area by the bus turnaround (i.e. the cartgate roof) which is a popular tourist picnic type area now that concerns NT and NE etc.
Brains
Well-known member
Other mines and areas with mines have succesfully been brought into access, by for example, the Cambrian Mines Trust. The current situation at Oden is quite secure as Sam says, but also none of the currently known workings extend east to the road. The mining activities that took place east of the gank mouth including soughing may well be already collapsed. The greatest hopes for extension are to west, if we can get in!
AR
Well-known member
The turning circle isn't likely to disappear - the cartgate portal was further into the gorge, and the turnpike ran on a raised embankment, but the inward side has been filled in. There was a tunnel through the embankment out onto the dressing floors, that's the blocked entrance you can see from the crushing circle.