Manchester Hole death in the news
- Thread starter AndyF
- Start date
kay
Well-known member
As far as I could see from the various newspaper reports, the prosecution case was that the instructor had not checked the reservoir, and that on the same day someone else had seen wind blowing waves up against the dam. The defence case was that the instructors were very familiar with the cave and could determine safety from past and current weather, weather forecast, and state of the river, and that, while floods can happen, what was unprecedented was the rapidity with which the water rose on that occasion.
langcliffe
Well-known member
It seems that the decision was taken to retreat upstream from Fossil Passage, which involves going through the crawl where the last people through encountered difficulties. It is not possible to bypass this section of passage. The Main Chamber, to which you may be referring, bypasses the next section upstream.Alex said:
Goydenman
Well-known member
Now that the case has finished I would like to make a few comments about what has been learnt.
1.The Goyden system including part of Manchester Hole (from Crawl to the duck) , all of Goyden, all of Frog pot, all of New Goyden pot and all of Nidd Heads floods completely. From the entrance of Manchester Hole to the crawl the stream rises but does not flood significantly unless the river actually flows into the main entrance. In the last 15 years I have seen it twice in the most severe conditions manage to just flow into the entrance and the stream inside still was struggling to be above wellie height. The great quantity of mud and debris in the main stream passage at roof height dates before the Scarhouse dam was built. We left objects (ping pong balls etc) amongst this debris and after a few years got fed up of seeing them! ? so removed them.
2.The instructor on the day of the incident knew the dam was overflowing ? it was obvious as the river outside of Manchester Hole was very high in fact too difficult to cross and chose to take the group into Manchester Hole by walking them down to Goyden and crossing there and walking back up the other bank. Given what is written above it is known that a trip into Manchester Hole as far as the crawl but no further is still an option. However note it is then possible to get marooned on the far bank if the river rises further and the river flows past Goyden pot. IE It is possible quite quickly for there be no safe way back across the river and a very long walk up the hill up or down the dale to a place where it is possible to cross. For this reason when with groups it has been common practice not to go into Manchester Hole if you cant safely cross the river directly opposite to get to it.
3.The section from the crawl to the duck including Fossil passage has always experienced flooding and is unpredictable whether it will be open or closed when the rest of the Goyden system is in flood. IE Some days when the river flows past Manchester Hole the crawl/duck has been open other days sumped out.
4.Over time there have been numerous holes open up along the river bank between Manchester Hole and Goyden pot that have allowed large quantities of water to enter the cave system. On one occasion a massive chunk of the mud slope in Manchester Hole was taken out overnight and temporarily blocked the river passage below. On the terrible day of the incident a hole that had opened up (months before) by Goyden main entrance allowed a large quantity of water to enter Divers chamber. This explains why on the day itself the river between the crawl and the duck in Manchester Hole rose so very fast.
Key lesson ? the water between the crawl and the duck can rise very fast giving little time to exit with airspace through the crawl. In flood conditions,like this, the duck is already sumped out so the only exit is the crawl.
5.Reminder ? it has long been know by cavers that winds from roughly westerly direction (ie West, South-west, North west) CAN CAUSE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF WATER TO FLOW OVER THE SCARHOUSE DAM AND FLOOD THE CAVES IF THE WATER IN THE DAM IS WITHIN A COUPLE OF METRES OF THE TOP. THE FLOODING THAT RESULTS CAN BE VERY QUICK AND SEVERE.
1.The Goyden system including part of Manchester Hole (from Crawl to the duck) , all of Goyden, all of Frog pot, all of New Goyden pot and all of Nidd Heads floods completely. From the entrance of Manchester Hole to the crawl the stream rises but does not flood significantly unless the river actually flows into the main entrance. In the last 15 years I have seen it twice in the most severe conditions manage to just flow into the entrance and the stream inside still was struggling to be above wellie height. The great quantity of mud and debris in the main stream passage at roof height dates before the Scarhouse dam was built. We left objects (ping pong balls etc) amongst this debris and after a few years got fed up of seeing them! ? so removed them.
2.The instructor on the day of the incident knew the dam was overflowing ? it was obvious as the river outside of Manchester Hole was very high in fact too difficult to cross and chose to take the group into Manchester Hole by walking them down to Goyden and crossing there and walking back up the other bank. Given what is written above it is known that a trip into Manchester Hole as far as the crawl but no further is still an option. However note it is then possible to get marooned on the far bank if the river rises further and the river flows past Goyden pot. IE It is possible quite quickly for there be no safe way back across the river and a very long walk up the hill up or down the dale to a place where it is possible to cross. For this reason when with groups it has been common practice not to go into Manchester Hole if you cant safely cross the river directly opposite to get to it.
3.The section from the crawl to the duck including Fossil passage has always experienced flooding and is unpredictable whether it will be open or closed when the rest of the Goyden system is in flood. IE Some days when the river flows past Manchester Hole the crawl/duck has been open other days sumped out.
4.Over time there have been numerous holes open up along the river bank between Manchester Hole and Goyden pot that have allowed large quantities of water to enter the cave system. On one occasion a massive chunk of the mud slope in Manchester Hole was taken out overnight and temporarily blocked the river passage below. On the terrible day of the incident a hole that had opened up (months before) by Goyden main entrance allowed a large quantity of water to enter Divers chamber. This explains why on the day itself the river between the crawl and the duck in Manchester Hole rose so very fast.
Key lesson ? the water between the crawl and the duck can rise very fast giving little time to exit with airspace through the crawl. In flood conditions,like this, the duck is already sumped out so the only exit is the crawl.
5.Reminder ? it has long been know by cavers that winds from roughly westerly direction (ie West, South-west, North west) CAN CAUSE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF WATER TO FLOW OVER THE SCARHOUSE DAM AND FLOOD THE CAVES IF THE WATER IN THE DAM IS WITHIN A COUPLE OF METRES OF THE TOP. THE FLOODING THAT RESULTS CAN BE VERY QUICK AND SEVERE.
AndyF
New member
Good post Goydenman.
Seems to me that all problems can be minimised by driving up and looking at the dam like I think it used to say in Northern Caves. Removes doubt 100% then
I didn't know the instructor walked the party down-river to cross... that seems to say everything really.
Seems to me that all problems can be minimised by driving up and looking at the dam like I think it used to say in Northern Caves. Removes doubt 100% then
I didn't know the instructor walked the party down-river to cross... that seems to say everything really.
