Marble Steps Pot question

[Pitlamp]

Has anyone been down (or even to the entrance of) Marble Steps over the last few days? If so, did you notice whether there is any water sinking down the wet route or if the stream is all frozen? It would be really helpful to know, so please can you post here or send me a PM? Thanks.

 

[Pitlamp]

No need for replies now, thanks - went for a run on Ireby Fell this morning before work and checked it directly. There is no water going down Marble Steps at all - it's all solidly frozen.

 

[caving_fox]

Note the forecast for the weather is a warming up between now and weekend, so if want to make the most of the freeze do so asap.

 

[Pitlamp]

Oh - it was just to do with a dive in the Marble Steps Branch of Keld Head, already done on Tuesday. But cheers for your comment. It has indeed gone mild and damp now here in the Dales (as at Thursday morning) but so far there's been no serious rain and at the moment it's still dry underground. The next 24 hours is looking like there might be a bit more rain; we'll see.

 

[psychocrawler]

Did you surface in a nice (dry) streamway and romp on towards Marble Steps?

Cheers,

AT

 

[Pitlamp]

No - but I was laying line along a very shallow passage complete with a vadose canyon.

 

[graham]

Vadose canyon? So water level has risen? What's holding it up?

 

[dunc]

Kingsdale..?

 

[graham]

Is there some sort of dam, artificial or natural, by the rising?

 

[dunc]

I could be mistaken but I'm sure I read/heard somewhere that Kingsdale has deposits (ice-age related) on its floor around Keld Head to Raven Ray which thus holds the water level in Keld Head higher than it once was.

I'm sure Pitlamp/someone will provide some other information on this - but I believe either vadose features or stals have been found in the KMC/Keld Head sump?

 

[seddon]

Yes. Pitlamp will tell more, no doubt.

 

[Pitlamp]

There is submerged flowstone in one obscure part of KH down to a depth of 4.5 m, which shows that at some stage the water level was at least 4.5 m lower. It was discovered many years ago by Geoff Yeadon and is reported in the CDG Newsletter. (We are hoping to get a date on this flowstone at some point, mainly for the local archaeologists who have done a lot of work in Kingsdale in recent years, as far back as early bronze age.) Some of the passage explored on Tuesday is shallower than this, so the presence of some vadose features is no great surprise.

As far as the question about what's holding it up is concerned - there's a lot of glacialy derived debris in Kingsdale (both from the Devensian and probably also earlier glacials). For a mature resurgence, Keld Head is actually quite high up (compared with Leck Beck Head for example).

I suspect that most people who aren't divers aren't especially interested in this so if anyone wants further info perhaps it'd be better to PM me? This isn't really my project; my involvement is only by invitation and we'll no doubt report properly on it in future of course.

 

[Hasbeen caver]

"I suspect that most people who aren't divers aren't especially interested in this...."

With all due respect, Pitlamp, you are so wrong!

For anyone interested in the exploration of the 3 Counties System - which I certainly am - will know that linking Keld Head to Marble Steps will plug a major blank space on the speculated map.

Whilst you may not be the main driving force behind this project, any information on how it is going - prior to the appearance of the "proper" report - really would be most welcome.

Best of luck with this most fascinating project, to you and your fellow divers.

Neil

 

[Armchair]

You beat me to it Neil, but are quite right: those most interested in the progress of diving projects (technicalities aside) surely tend to be non-divers, who can't actually 'go there' themselves, nor for the life of them understand all the habitual secrecy and PM-ing that tends to be associated with this kind of activity. OK, there might have been one or two well-known cases of sump poaching in the past but, for the most part, we didn't do it and would be interested to know what's going on from time to time.

'Hasbeencaver'... 'Armchair'... are we by any chance related?

 

[graham]

Pitlamp is both wrong and right.

He is wrong as both the previous two posters state. However he is right as it isn't his project. I hope he will be able to persuade those involved to speak about their finds. If he cannot, however, don't blame him.

 

[Pitlamp]

My apologies Hasbeen, Armchair and Graham - don't worry, when further progress happens I'll put something on this board. However it's likely to be a long time because the weather window is well and truly over now in the Dales and it could be months before we get the right conditions again. The visibility at Keld Head is back to it's normal dark brown gloom.

There's no secrecy or concern about "poaching" or anything. I only mentioned the possibility of further info available via PMs because I didn't want to bore what I assumed was the majority of readers. Obviously very experienced cavers like your good selves probably are interested to know what's going on.

The other reason is that I feel the proper place fully to report dives is the CDG Newsletter. I didn't want to pre-empt this journal by writing all the fine details here because I think it's crucial to support the definitive publication. Otherwise no-one will buy it, then it's at risk of disappearing. The internet is useful - but it's not THAT useful.

 

[graham]

The other reason is that I feel the proper place fully to report dives is the CDG Newsletter. I didn't want to pre-empt this journal by writing all the fine details here because I think it's crucial to support the definitive publication. Otherwise no-one will buy it, then it's at risk of disappearing. The internet is useful - but it's not THAT useful.

Quite agree, but that is a subject for a whole different debate. Personally, I feel that the CDG Newsletter because of they way in which it is written just cries out to have all its back numbers uploaded to the web in a way that would allow all the work on a given site or group of sites to be searched for.

 

[Pitlamp]

They are available online but it's a member only password protected system. It was set up this way as a member benefit because the membership fee for the CDG was seen as expensive and this was one way of answering the "What do I get?" question from those considering joining. Experience has shown however that where a non member has a really good reason to use the database for ligitimate reasons the CDG is able to co-operate. One recent example is the bloke who is writing Peter Livesey's biography; arrangements have been made for him to have access for a period of time. Someone who wanted to research a site to dive it but who (although they are actively cave diving) is unwilling to become a member might not receive this privilege. The idea is that anyone who is actively cave diving and wants to make use of this wonderful archive of exploratory material should support the organisation which produces it directly by becoming a member.

 

[Hasbeen caver]

Pitlamp - does the CDG still have such a thing as "Non-diver" membership? (if that isn't an oxymoron!)  And if so, do you happen to know what it costs?

I subscribed to the newsletter for years, but at that time subscription rates for non-members were extremely expensive, and I remember one prominent member telling me it would be cheaper / make more sense to get the newsletter through such a membership.

In the end, I let my sub lapse, and - because none of the shops I go in sell the newsletter - I haven't seen a copy for several years.  (Indeed is it still sold in any shops?  I went into Caving Supplies with a view to picking up a batch of back issues last year, but it seemed they were no longer stocking it).

Having access to a database of back issues certainly appeals to me, and would allow me to catch up on the years I missed....

Neil

 

[graham]

Like Hasbeen, I don't dive (I barely swim!) but have many times needed to research dives that had happened in the past. I do have access to a full set of printed copies in the UBSS Library, but do most of my reading/writing at home so an online resource would be useful.

It is good to know that access could be arranged  if circumstances warranted it, but sometimes the ability to just browse and follow a line of thought is nice, too.

I've done quite a lot of sherparing in my time, if that's any help.