MOD land

[southpembscaver]

Does anyone know the MOD's stance on digging, has anybody ever attempted to obtain permission to dig on MOD land and if so what was the result. The area that I am considering is the Castlemartin range in South Pembrokeshire.

 

[AndyF]

I think most of the big MOD ranges have an "Conservation Officer" who looks after wildlife/conservation etc. Sometimes they are retired military personel, rather than serving staff.

The MOD are actualy quite good at this. Ive talked to one down in Dorset and they are keen to have positive PR for MOD activities.

I'd suggest you try to find out who covers castlemartin, and try to arrange a meeting. You stand a good chance I think..

 

[SamT]

Isn't Castlemartin where most of the climbing is, Huntsmans leap etc.

Personally I think you'll be lucky

There is range east - which has open access (certainly to walkers and climbers) when they are not firing. Here there are big blowholes, such as the one taken by the route 'Preposterous tales', but its never really stuck me as 'cave' territory.

Range west however (west of longstone Ln I think) is only open once or twice a year and by special arrangement.

It may well be worth contacting folk in the climbing community whom are 'activists' on Range west, and find out about their relationship with the MOD.

thy this as a starter

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1553

where there is this link

www.access.mod.uk

Again, Im not convinced by the 'potential' of the area. The limestone is really not very deep AFAIAA.

Try asking for contacts on the sister site, UKbouldering - under the 'chuffing' forum (aka routes and shit). You'll probably get a decent response.

My only experience of the MOD there was not exactly pleasant.

Caught out by a damp route in Stennis Ford we where overdue out before closing time on the Range. Frogmarched by Soldiers (who didnt even offer us a lift in their Landy despite wanting us off the range asap cause we where holding up 'manoeuvres' ) all the way to the phone where my mate had to speak to some sort of Sargent/officer type bloke on the phone who gave him a right royal bollocking.

 

[4bags]

Re potential, i'm pretty sure Ogof Govan is located on or adjacent to, the Castlemartin range, Saddle Head, i think. Short, but well-decorated, apparently (i'v looked for it a couple of times but never found it!)

 

[rhychydwr1]

Re potential, i'm pretty sure Ogof Govan is located on or adjacent to, the Castlemartin range, Saddle Head, i think. Short, but well-decorated, apparently (i'v looked for it a couple of times but never found it!)

There is of course a book....   

 

[NigR]

Tread carefully. Cambrian Caving Council have been involved in negotiations with the MOD for some time regarding access to Range West. Suggest you contact Elsie Little (CCC Conservation and Access Officer) to see what the current state of play is.

There are many caves in both Range East and Range West, but most are short and of little consequence. However, some are of potentially important archaelogical significance and should be treated accordingly.

Ogof Govan is indeed well-decorated but (as 4bags has discovered) is (fortunately) somewhat difficult to locate and access.

There is good potential for further discoveries but these are likely to be limited in scale.

Range west however (west of longstone Ln I think) is only open once or twice a year and by special arrangement.

Range West has been open to climbers (and various other interested recreational groups) for many years. You have to attend an annual safety briefing, then pick up a pass from the guardhouse on each visit. Details of this year's meetings should be on the BMC website.

Regarding the different access procedures for the two ranges, this is because Range West is a live-firing range - well worth bearing in mind should you ever go there.

Although far from ideal, access to Range West is a lot better than it used to be. The current system for climbers only came about as a result of a series of well-publicised mass trespasses back in the early 1990's. My own early visits were well before that and involved much excitement hiding from the patrolling landrovers. (Don't try this today as you will most certainly be discovered and arrested!).

Overall, it should be remembered that we are all little more than nuisance value to the MOD and things could be a lot worse. Should the MOD ever decide that we were getting in the way of the primary purpose of the ranges then all access could easily cease with immediate effect. Believe me, this is one landowner you don't want to annoy too much.

p.s. southpembscaver, where are you based? If you ever fancy doing some digging a little further east then give me a shout (I live in Ammanford).

 

[rhychydwr1]

Re potential, i'm pretty sure Ogof Govan is located on or adjacent to, the Castlemartin range, Saddle Head, i think. Short, but well-decorated, apparently (i'v looked for it a couple of times but never found it!)

Quite easy to find if you know how:

OGOF GOFAN [or Govan]    NGR SR 9590 9296  or 9581 9301!  A 40 feet    L 400 feet  SADDLE HEAD
On the west side of Saddle Head.  Discovered by Mel Davies in 1966.  It is reached by a 40 foot ladder pitch from the top of the cliffs.  The main entrance is a 10 foot by 6 foot opening connected by an 80 feet crawl to another opening in the cliff face.
From the main entrance, a very tight excavated crawl excludes all but the smaller caver.  This leads to a well decorated passage and then a magnificent chamber some 50 feet by 30 feet with a great hollow in the centre surrounded by stalagmites.  Formed in a pool at the bottom are four huge specimens, one a column 14 feet to the ceiling.  The others are 10 feet, 8 feet, and 6 feet respectively.  Another 5 feet of the largest is submerged in the pool.  A further 150 feet of well decorated passage leads off.

The finds include Neolithic Peterborough ware pottery, worked flints and animal bones, possibly some Upper Palaeolithic remains.

Access: The cave is on Ministry of Defence property who control access.

References:
Bellamy, David  1996  Ogof Govan.  Brynmawr CC Jl 1966 23-25
CwCC [19] 1991-92  9-10; 21 14-16; 23 8-9 S duplicate of Davies 1996 infra
Davies, M  1968  The Discovery and Exploration of Ogof Gofan SWCC N/L (61) 23-24,
reprinted CwCC Jl  3 16
Davies, M 1968  Ogof Gofan - Archaeological Report.  SWCC N/L (62) 8, reprinted CwCC Jl  4 7 & BC 51 3
Davies, Mel  1996 + A Flint Find at Ogof Gofan, Castlemartin.  SWCC N/L (118) 176-177 S
Fibresport Report No  371  2-9-66, reprinted BC 48 80
Fibresport Report No 374  7-10-66, reprinted BC 48 81-82
Miles p 139, 140
Stratford p 138
SWCC N/L (77) 12
WSG Bull  6 (1) 11

Stolen from "The Caves of West Wales".

 

[SamT]

There is plenty of climbing on Saddle head However I never knew there was a decorated cave there.

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_buttress.html?id=1161

Blue Sky is a fantastic route at the grade.

I'll be taking an overall and lamp next time Im down there. 

Its worth looking up Preposterous Tales on the adjacent Bosherston Head buttress. It starts at a sea level cave. Traverse into the cave to enter a huge cavern with the sea as its floor. Pick your way up to daylight though a small blowhole set back from the cliff tops.

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=17750

 

[NigR]

Blue Sky is a fantastic route at the grade.

I entirely agree - a brilliant route at VS 4b, exposed for the grade but with superb holds.

Regarding Ogof Gofan, it's good of rhychydwr1 to post the description from his book but (no disrespect intended) I think anyone going there for the first time would do well to locate the entrance if they were to rely purely upon what is written here.

However, Caves of West Wales is certainly worth getting hold of if you have even the slightest interest in the more obscure caves of the area.

 

[rhychydwr1]

Its worth looking up Preposterous Tales on the adjacent Bosherston Head buttress. It starts at a sea level cave. Traverse into the cave to enter a huge cavern with the sea as its floor. Pick your way up to daylight though a small blowhole set back from the cliff tops.

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=17750

I used a ladder, many years ago.  You would not catch me climbing it without a top rope.  I like the comment:

`3 hours of complete concentration on slime. This is not climbing its caving. DONT DO IT!!!
chris '

 

[southpembscaver]

Again, Im not convinced by the 'potential' of the area. The limestone is really not very deep AFAIAA.

Really? I was under the impression that the largest cave system in the world the Mammoth cave system in Kentucky (590km) is in beds of limestone only 100m thick at their thickest point. The geological map of south Pembs shows that the limestone is flat bedded so there could be real horizontal potential and if this is not the case then the amount of limestone is unlikely to be the constraining factor :-\

 

[rhychydwr1]

Again, Im not convinced by the 'potential' of the area. The limestone is really not very deep AFAIAA.

Really? I was under the impression that the largest cave system in the world the Mammoth cave system in Kentucky (590km) is in beds of limestone only 100m thick at their thickest point. The geological map of south Pembs shows that the limestone is flat bedded so there could be real horizontal potential and if this is not the case then the amount of limestone is unlikely to be the constraining factor :-\

Fred Davies says "Caves is where you find 'em"

Get digging.

 

[Roger W]

I take it this area is safe for digging?

"Wot's this metal thingy here?" (giving it a bash with his shovel/crowbar/pickaxe).



"Oh well, that's got us a few feet deeper!"

Though I suppose most of the stuff fired from the tank guns at Castlemartin will be solid shot...

 

[Slug]

I take it this area is safe for digging?

"Wot's this metal thingy here?" (giving it a bash with his shovel/crowbar/pickaxe).



"Oh well, that's got us a few feet deeper!"

Though I suppose most of the stuff fired from the tank guns at Castlemartin will be solid shot...

Not always, Chieftain's, Challenger's and the German Leopard's, can fire a variety of rounds, not just A.P.D.S. (solid shot-rather like an arrow), but H.E.S.H. ( Hi. Ex. Squash Head.) which is several Kilo's of bang,& Std. Hi. Ex., Canister Rounds (which converts a tank gun into a shot gun), + Smoke rounds, from both the main gun, and grenade launchers, which may contain White Phosphorous,,,,,VERY NASTY, Then there's the small calibre rounds from the machine guns, some of which (1in4) will be tracers, and the Chieftain used to use a .50 cal "Ranging Gun", which fired a 1/2" Flashing tip incendiary round, to lay the Main Gun.
My former employers also used to drop things there, like 28lb. Practice bombs which contain a W.P. smoke charge, and they don't always go off, they can lie buried for years, quite safe until disturbed. Cluster Bombs may also have been dropped, 147 mini-bomblets, often, not all of which go off. They cannot be defused, and could go at the slightest touch. S.N.E.B., Air to Ground Rockets will almost certainly have been used too, and as before, they don't always go off either.  The same can also be said for the "Charley G ", 84mm Rocket Launcher, and the 66mm, and the 90mil, and also the MILAN wire guided Missile, to name but a few. A pattern is emerging here,,,, Not Everything Goes Off as advertised on the box.
One final thing to think about is the MoD.'s Paperwork obsession, especially when it comes to issuing Ammunition. In short, Because of the packaging that ammo comes in, all of which is discarded before use, it's bloody nigh impossible to put it back into stores, the form filling alone is phenomenal. Once issued, it has to be used.To avoid this bullshit, yer average Squaddie (and Airman in my case), will generally employ "Alternative Disposal Methods", ie: Dump it. Now your Chieftain and Challenger's main Armament is a 120mm gun that uses "Bagged Charges" , that's a sodding great bag of Cordite as a propellant, rather than a Shell Case, so no empties to get rid of. They are not always "Flared Off" at the end of practice, so these buggers can often be found just below the surface, and Cordite can remain viable for decades

  In summary, I wouldn't dig there.

 

[Mr Boost]

Looking on the brighter side of life , you would be great at hop skotch !!!

 

[NigR]

Brilliant post, Slug!

In short, this is why you are not allowed to dig there. It is also why climbers are not allowed to hammer in metal stakes for belays.

If you go to one of the MOD briefings you can examine, close up, many of the objects mentioned here. They have been made safe.

If you get a pass and visit Range West you may well see some of the same objects in situ. They have not been made safe and could kill you if touched. One of the documents you sign when applying for a pass (quite rightly) absolves the MOD of all blame if this occurs.

As I said earlier, tread carefully.

 

[gus horsley]

Quite some time ago, when I lived in the area, I worked for the farmers who grazed their sheep on the ranges and gained access to most of the area through the official sources.  Initially I contacted their conservation officer who authorised access because I was a birdwatcher and could therefore supply them with some useful information regarding chough numbers, etc.  I didn't find a single diggable site in the entire area - there are no shakeholes or sinks and, knowing the geology of the area, I would be surprised if anything of any size exists.

I've visited Ogof Govan and it's quite interesting but, unless someone shows you where it is, you wouldn't be able to locate it.

The climbing however, is brilliant, from the easy stuff at Giltar to the horrors of Huntsman's.

 

[mrodoc]

If you go through your old Descents you will find a cover photo of Ogof Gofan taken my Martyn Farr. Certainly looks spectacular but I gather it is quite tricky to get into.

 

[traff]

I've visited Ogof Govan and it's quite interesting but, unless someone shows you where it is, you wouldn't be able to locate it.

The gridrefs given in various publications are inaccurate, GPS won't help you find it. Furthermore stating it is on Saddle Head is misleading. You can find it without being shown. I would suggest a walk along the cliff top and if you've done your homework you can see the 'window' and from there the more accessible entrance is not difficult to find.

I will admit I didn't find it the first time. But there is a photo on the cover a book that points you in the right direction.

 

[southpembscaver]

Does anybody know if there are any trad climbing routes that pass close to the entrance, that would make it very easy to find using a climbers guidebook? I'm going there this weekend and have heard the stories of wandering the cliffs all day and want to avoid that.