More media - an alternative view

[badger]

like the guardian article it is a reporter reporting what they think, maybe they have unfortunately misinterpretated Nigels words when he says a small number want to change the interpretation of crow.
the permit systems do work much better in the south than the dales, this is changing but having been a person frustrated with the dales permit system had my vote arrived (lost in the post office somewhere) would have voted in favour, that's makes another southern caver in favour

 

[droid]

I did get the form, and might have voted 'yes' had it not been for the viciousness of the reaction to anyone daring to question the Nirvana of CRoW.

Not all those that are labelled as 'anti-CRoW are. Some merely need assurance that their worries about foreseeable problems are going to be recognised.

 

[paul]

I see that the article has been updated to point out that comments were made by the individual as a caver and not from the viewpoint of MCR and the photo has been updated.

 

[Madness]

The article is seems to suggest that it's only 'some cavers in the north' want to change things.

Unfortunately whoever wrote the article was fed with selected truths and possibly a few mis-truths. It's a pity that they didn't research both sides of the debate before publishing the article, but I suspect that the reporter was naive enough to trust that they were being told the truth.

 

[Simon Wilson]

The pro-CRoW majority are occupying the moral high ground and the anti-CRoW minority are continuing with dirty tricks and lies.

 

[Brains]

Hmmm Seems Graham is trying to rubbish the referendum on the basis of turnout, but it still remains the best yardstick of caver opinion available. In addition he states the act will not provide protection for sensitive sites. So what is section 26 all about and why does he think it spineless?

It also seems some Mendip Cavers are now campaigning to maintain the status quo via an MP, if they are members of BCA should they be censured for acting against the mandate and BCA policy? If it is CSCC against the BCA then the rift is even worse - perhaps they should cede from BCA?

We keep hearing how CRoW calarification in favour of access will reduce access to Mendip caves, but we have not been told of any specifics - just vague rumours and dark hints. Put up or shut please

 

[Brains]

Some more media... "Darkness Below" has published an editorial by Linda Wilson, essentially the BCA should ignore the referendum and return to rolling over in front of the landowners, all resistance is futile and no progress will ever be made...

 

[ALEXW]

I think Linda Wilson talks sense. "Surely it?s time for cavers to put aside their differences and work on strengthening relationships with each other and with landowners."

If we need a "favourable" interpretation of the Crow act to allow us to access caves against the landowners wishes, surely those same landowners would be disinclined to allow us to do the things that require their permission, digging for example.

Be careful what you wish for...

 

[tellmeagainstupid]

Have just read the article in The Wells Journal which in no way indicates unlike in its online copy that Nigel Taylor as Mendip Cave Rescues longest serving HERO is speaking as an individual and not representing the views of Mendip Cave Rescue. Which is it ??????? Don't think Mendip Cavers will be welcome in the dales anytime soon

 

[Madness]

Don't think Mendip Cavers will be welcome in the dales anytime soon

It's not 'Mendip Cavers', 'Southern Cavers' or 'whatever cavers'. It's just a minority from all parts who want to go against what was democratically decided.

 

[jasonbirder]

I agree with Linda Wilson

Surely it?s time for cavers to put aside their differences

Indeed...and accept the wishes of the majority...and stop trying to derail a process which has a huge mandate

 

[Madness]

What all these anti CRoW articles seem to omit is the fact that the BCA held a poll and the majority of it's members voted on this course of action. i think it's call 'selective reporting'

 

[badger]

and relax, I think the wells journal and the comments made where either interpretated incorrectly or twisted, the suggestion of a small number of cavers is obviously incorrect as the BCA vote can show.
however to say CSCC is anti crow cannot be right, CSCC can only act as it member clubs decide, and in the case of the CSCC it decided against. not sure on the vote but possibly some clubs voted in favour of crow.
now whether all cscc club reps canvassed their membership or just voted their own opinion I cannot say, only they and their clubs would be able to answer that one.
however I think the biggest issue is the regional difference, although mendip is not the only caving area in the south it is the major one, and where access/permit is required it is very easy. this cannot have been said of the dales, although much has been done to address this, but the dales is still restrictive on who can have permits and have possibly a higher % of caves reactive to water making a decision to cave when one should not.

 

[droid]

The pro-CRoW majority are occupying the moral high ground and the anti-CRoW minority are continuing with dirty tricks and lies.

For someone that regards themselves as a technical 'expert' that is a gross generalisation.

I resent it being said that I indulge in 'dirty tricks and lies' If you mean one individual then have the balls to name them. Don't label all those that don't follow your particular path as tricksters and liars.

 

[NewStuff]

The pro-CRoW majority are occupying the moral high ground and the anti-CRoW minority are continuing with dirty tricks and lies.

For someone that regards themselves as a technical 'expert' that is a gross generalisation.

I resent it being said that I indulge in 'dirty tricks and lies' If you mean one individual then have the balls to name them. Don't label all those that don't follow your particular path as tricksters and liars.

I'll bite.

Peter Burgess, Graham Mullen, Tony Brocklebank.

The kindest can be said is deliberate disinformation, "dirty tricks" is not a stretch by any means. Yourself and others are cautions, fair enough. Those 3 are out to scupper the whole thing at any cost.

 

[droid]

You, at least NewStuff, have the balls to say things direct. Simon hasn't.

I might strongly disagree with a lot of what you say, but at least you don't faff about. Props.

Whatever respect I had for Simon's comments evaporated about 10 minutes ago. He and Jackalpup need to realise that 'I'm right , you're wrong and a c**t for disagreeing with me' is not a very productive debating technique.

*Note to Pegasus/Badlad: sorry for the negativity, but there are certain things that get my goat. Being called a liar and a trickster is one of them.

 

[Peter Burgess]

And naming people, whether me or not, when the person doing it  cries to mummy whenever he is named here. Utter hypocrisy. At least I will respect his wish not to be named, but even so, more and more people do know who he is.

 

[droid]

The problem is not so much naming as the broad-brush labelling of *anyone* not following the 'CRoW as caving Nirvana' line as liars and tricksters.

I have the greatest respect for those named. I might not agree with everything they post but they can be argued with in a reasonable manner. NewStuff, for all his aggression, at least says what he thinks and doesn't creep round people.

That can't be said of all in this discussion.

Simon has definitely upped the ante on this one.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Can't POSSIBLY be the reason why people leave this place?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Regarding the Linda Wilson piece - there are important facts and answers in it that are not being addressed or are being deliberately ignored. Perhaps people are seeing what they want to see and not reading with enough care.